The True Story Of The Odyssey (and why it matters) - Alex Petkas

Why is the Odyssey such an important story? Well, it's a story that has affected a lot of people. I think because it has all of these really universal themes and problems that it that it relates to. I mean, any good literature does that, but maybe the Odyssey in particular, I mean, Chris Nolan talks about it as this sort of archetypal story that is somehow in all of the movies that he's done. And you know there's there's a theme of uh returning to your home uh sacrificing on behalf of the community. Um one of the things that I think is really timely about the Odyssey and I don't really know how much uh the movie is going to get into this but it's kind of a story about the collapse of the patriarchy and how it gets restored. Uh what it what it takes to restore that. Um which you know maybe is is is timely for our day. who wrote it? So, Homer [snorts] is is the short answer. Who's Homer? Homer Homer is the author according to the Greeks of the Iliad and the Odyssey. These two poems that um you know, modern scholars will kind of quibble about was was it one guy, was it two guys, was it a whole kind of crowd of men working or you know, people working in this tradition? Um, and and we can get into that a little bit, but essentially Homer is the attributed author who is this sort of semi semi a very blessed epic bard. He's he's an epic poet. And this is a really special type for the Greeks. The the epic poet is um there are other poets that sing other kinds of songs and poetry and song are very aligned in in the in the Greek mind and there's a lot of interesting reasons for that. But um he's traditionally conceived of as this blind bard um who lived maybe in the 8th century BC. And the the fascinating thing for me about the Iliad and the Odyssey um which kind of you know are in dialogue with with each other on some level is okay the Greeks discover writing in the 8th century BC. they they they sort of steal it from the phoenetians and and modify it a little bit, make some improving tweaks. So So the first time that they can really write down their language is this, you know, 700s BC. And you know, out of the blue emerges two of the greatest works of literature ever written, many people think the greatest. Uh, and it's all kind of maybe not decline from that, but everybody's always >> the first album was really difficult to follow up, >> right? [laughter] It's it's almost like, you know, what if today we were still talking about the first movie ever made. Nobody's nobody's ever going to top, you know, Metropolis or uh No Ferratu or, you know, and there's probably still people today that think that, but you know, most would say that we've we've developed a little bit as, you know, as a the movie culture has gotten somewhat better. Um, but you know, for for the case of Homer, it's it's kind of amazing that these things kind of emerge, you know, straight from the mind of Zeus, almost fully formed with all these incredibly rich layers and they they're so resonant and they have this depth to them, all these like symbolic aspects to them. And um, how did that happen? I think is a really interesting question. >> Is there any indication that this story existed before him? >> Is it his story? So the the backstory of this is if you look at Homer and look at his language and look at the themes in it. All right, it's it's it's in Greek, but Greek is an Indo-uropean language. uh all of the Indo-Uropean languages derived from the Indo-Uropeans, this this step people from the middle central Asia that went spread out and conquered all these regions and um you know other Indo-Uropean languages include Latin and uh Celtic and Germanic also Indian or or Sanskrit. Basically the the the Indic peoples also are they have this Indo-Uropean kind of cultural inheritance especially in northern India and um the people that that used to be called the Aryans and now you know Twitter and will call it call them Aryans but you know so so if you look at Homer's language and themes you can find very striking recognizable patterns in the Vadic epic tradition of the Mahabar parata and there's there's a kind of common ancestor, a common poetic tradition. So the argument goes and I think it's really right that goes back thousands of years. So Homer's stories are uniquely Greek on some level, but they're also kind of developments that have been around for thousands and thousands of years of of of oral culture that kind of hits writing right around the 8th century. And it's a kind of distillation of, you know, thousands of years of stories and and you know, the stories of the Trojan War and the Greek heroes probably go back at least hundreds of years before Homer in their >> is there anything else to know about. Was he blind? Was he who people think he is? Well, ancient poets, we don't know a lot about their lives typically the the really ancient Greek ones. And so people often like later Greeks would look at clues to try to figure out who these guys were. And there's actually the one of the reasons um people think Homer is considered a blind poet is because there's actually a blind epic bard in the Odyssey >> that his name is Deodicus. He appears in book eight and he seems to be a kind of Homer figure in the Odyssey itself >> in the same way as painters in the Renaissance would paint themselves into their works. >> Yeah, very much that that sort of thing. And you know, the idea is the the gods have robbed him of his sight, but they've given him this deeper vision into the mysteries of the universe and human suffering and so forth. >> All right, tell me about the story. What happens? >> Uh, so if I mean, I want to get into the narrative uh and the details, but you know, the story is pretty simple. Uh, there's a backstory. You might you might have heard the Trojan War. um that happens before the poem begins in the in the poem's chronology. But, you know, 10 years of war at Troy, uh, the the the cause of war was Helen of Troy or Helen of Sparta was was um seduced by this playboy Trojan prince Paris and he spirited her away to to Troy, stole her away from the Greeks, Menaaus of of of Sparta. and the you know the Greeks assembled this massive army to go and take her back essentially and u get some plunder along the way. They after 10 years they finally end up sacking and destroying the city and the man responsible for the victory ultimately in in the Greek's eyes and certainly in the eyes of the Odyssey is Adysius himself because he came up with the idea of the Trojan horse >> and that was that was his idea. >> What year was this in? So this is, you know, maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. I I like to ascribe to the school of higher naive. We can't disprove it. Like let's just say maybe maybe something like that happened. Yeah. And there's there's a lot of debates about this, but it would have been 1200 BC. >> Okay. >> Roughly. So there's it's a combination of maybe some real world stuff with lots of mythology trying to sort of root something in reality, but then also build it out into a bigger imagination. >> Yeah. I think it's better to think of Homer as historical fiction rather than just like pure fiction. That's that's certainly how the Greeks would have thought about it. Like they believe that the Trojan War happened for the most part. And none of them are going to say, you know, it happened exactly like Homer told the story. >> Um but they they thought it happened and Homer's in the 8th century imagining this conflict 400 years earlier. >> Okay. So it's a sequel in kind. It's a a story sequel to this epic myth that may hap may have happened may not have happened quite the way that we think it does. So this is set in about 1200 BC. >> Right. Right. >> Yeah. and and it the Odyssey is kind of a sequel to the Iliad which is a longer somewhat longer poem and uh you know this is a story about what happens at Troy itself and Achilles is the big hero there and famously Achilles dies you know Paris shoots him in the heel in his Achilles heel the only vulnerable spot on him uh before the the city actually gets taken um and so uh you know but Achilles doesn't die in the Iliad but his death is kind of hinted at uh and then the Odyssey kind of picks up a little bit after the Ili well 10 years I guess after the Iliad would have ended [clears throat] um and and makes the case that Adysius was actually there's this kind of dialogue between the Iliad and the Odyssey of who is the best of the Greeks or the best of the Akans as as Homer calls them the Akans are >> because in the first book it was Achilles and in the second book right it's Adysius >> yeah obviously it's Achilles because whenever Achilles is there the Greeks win win win and whenever Achilles you know is is is is absent from the battle. The Trojans win. But you know, at the end of the day, who was it that was responsible for the victory? Did Homer write these in sequence? Did he write the Iliad first? Well, this this is what the ancient critics thought. This is the kind of traditional narrative. Homer is one guy and he wrote the Iliad as a young man in the kind of vigor of maybe he's 35 and, you know, hanging around guys like you see in in the Iliad, warriors. I mean, he's seen spears go in and out of faces and just the incredibly stuff >> that that you see in the Iliad and a little bit in the Odyssey, but that he's one of those kind of um warrior class people or hanging around those kind of guys, knows people like Achilles and Diamedes. >> And then in his older age, he he pens the Odyssey and it's a slower story. It's more kind of, you know, there's a more digressions. there's more kind of slices of daily life or peace time and and so he's kind of writing this in the twilight of his years and and I I kind of like that because you know the Iliad is just so visceral and and um you know stark and and immediate and violent and glamorous. It kind of glamorizes war, not not uncritically, but then the Odyssey is um is kind of if it's if it's a poem by an old man, it's it's also written for a wider audience. I think this has a lot to do with its appeal today, too. And and kind of in in modernity, it just it's in incorporates a higher range of human experience. Um and it's maybe it's for the young especially like Tucas, who's this young guy that kicks off the poem. I mean that that might be the the real target audience of of the Odyssey. Just like a like a broader range of people and there's also women much more, you know, explored in depth in the Odyssey. Um so that answers the question. That's the background. That's how we arrive at the beginning of it. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, uh all all the Trojan War has ended. Adysius has some trouble getting home. It's actually 20 years after the Trojan War started when the Odyssey timeline begins. And um we learn in the first, you know, 100 lines or so of the Odyssey that Adysius, you know, kind of got got off course trying to get back from Troy. Se several of the Greeks had this experience and um on his way home he met these monsters and strange people and he pissed off the god Poseidon. And for a variety of reasons, many of which are his his own faults, many of which may be not only his fault, uh he is stuck on this island with this divine nymph, [snorts] a calypso, and she's she's she's uh she's kind of got him as a prisoner and she wants to make him her husband. And so he's stuck there away from home. And and then everybody at home back in his homeland, which is an island called Ithaca, is wondering where he is. You know, uh did he die? He didn't die at Troy. The stories about the Trojan War are like circulating in in the kind of world of the poem. People know something of what happened, but there's no there's no news of Adysius. What happened? Did did he did he get lost at sea? You know, it's did he just abandon his family? Is he, you know, going to go off and, you know, do more pirate adventures among the Ethiopians or what what's going on with Adysius? Nobody knows. And um and and the the poem kind of starts with this background in place, misadventures, meeting monsters, stuck on Calypso's Island. Um and uh that's all kind of before the story actually begins. And the story begins when the gods have this meeting and uh Poseidon happens to be distracted. He's pissed off at Adysius and doesn't want him to get home. [gasps] >> But um Poseidon's off like partying with the Ethiopians >> as you do >> as as one does as as as the gods often do. I mean they're they're they're a good hang >> and the Ethiopians. >> The Ethiopians. Yeah. Yeah. >> They're a good hang. Okay. That's news. That's news to me. >> Read Heroditus. There's many details, you know. Were they northern? Were they southern? Who knows? But they were fun and and and they're far. So So Poseidon's distracted. And then Athena says, "All right, we can we're gonna do something about Adysius now." Athena is kind of Adysius's divine champion. She's um his favorite goddess. He's her favorite hero. And she goes to Zeus, the the you know, the king of the gods and sort of lord of the cosmos. And she says, "Odysus was a pious man. He was a good king. He was a good dad. it's just not fair that he just brought away on this island with this nymph and his son is just, you know, growing up without a father. We got to do something about this. And Zeus says, "All right, we'll do something about this." Poseidon will just have to deal with it. And and that's how the the action kind of kicks off in in in the Odyssey. And long story short, you know, Adysius gets released from the island uh by the god's will. Tyicus, his son, is sent on this kind of vision quest, right of passage, initiation journey, and Athena helps him out with that. >> Um, Adysius tells a story at the center of the book. And if you want to just like skip all of the like not A+ interesting parts of the Odyssey and just get to the kind of the famous monsters and and adventures, you can go to book 9 through 12 where Odysius basically tells all of the backstory in his own voice to an audience of people that he's met. So how much how much of the story is what happens when he gets back and how much is the retelling of what happened before? So the the first eight books are him and Tmicus. There's 24 books. So the first book four four books are Tmicus. Then there's four books about Adysius getting from Calypso's island to this sort of intermediary destination Scaria. It's called the the Fiatans or this people that help him get home. He tells them his story. And then from 13 to 24 is like him and Tyus back on Ithaca and how they solve the big problem that has arisen at home which we haven't treated yet >> which is that his house is infested with suitors trying to woo his wife away trying to steal his wife away >> 50% of the book is Love Island. >> 50 [laughter] Love Island. >> Yeah. The Lotus were Love Island Sirens. Yeah. >> Okay. >> The Fiatians. Yeah. There's a lot of there's a lot of kind of sexual tension. >> Okay. [laughter] Okay. >> Especially, you know, Adysius with the Fiats, which we we should get to. >> Okay. So, what's what's the right of passage thing? >> Yeah. So, it's good to start with probably be. So, when you when you start the Odyssey, it's kind of like, wow, I thought this was about Adysius. And, you know, page after page, you know, you don't meet the guy really until >> his [ __ ] idiot son in this story so much. He's a weak little, but that's kind of the point, you know. Tmicus is is stuck there at home. Uh, how old is he? >> He's 20. So, Adysius left him as an infant essentially, and he's never met his dad, only heard about him. Um, and he's kind of grown up in this in this world of women, you know, his mom and the maid servants who are very loyal. And you know there's there's uh you know loyal servants of Adysius here and there but um Tmicus's grandfather is is kind of uh too old to do anything and he's kind of kind of shattered by Adysius's absence. Um so it's I think it I think it starts with Tmicus because Homer really wants to get you to feel viscerally what it's like when the father figure is absent. like how bad things get when the leader is gone and that kind of motivates the rest of the story. So So Tmicus is um uh you know 20 he's getting bossed around. There's 108 suitors at his house from all over Western Greece, princes and uh big shots. >> Why is Adysius's wife so desirable? >> That's a good question. So Penelopey is her name famously. She's um right. I mean, late 30s at the youngest, >> maybe early 40s. Um, I mean, why are why why is she the most desirable catch in like all of Greece? I think it's I mean, obviously like women can be very attractive and alluring at that age, but, you know, for 108 eligible young rich bachelors to come and try to Love Islander. >> Yeah. It's closer to Bonnie Blue than Love Island, but Yeah. >> Right. >> That's that's the counter example. you know, you're always supposed to, you know, how could this go wrong? >> Yeah, >> has has a lot of options, right? >> So, so he uh she's I think she's desirable. She's very smart and well bred, blah, blah, blah. But the real reason I think she's desirable is, you know, it's like mimemetic desire. It's the kind of the Gerard. >> [ __ ] knew you were going to say that, >> you know. Yeah, I went there. I want the guy that's a hero because if I can take her, that means I'm a hero, too. 100%. >> You might not believe me, but this is what peak sleep optimization looks like. Not talking about the night gown that's just for sex appeal. I'm talking about my eight sleep. The eightle pod 5 comes with a smart cover you throw on your mattress that actively cools or heats each side of the bed up to 20°. And now they've added the world's first temperature regulating duvet and pillowcase. So you've got 360° coverage for deep uninterrupted rest. It's like being Walt Disney without the cryogenic chamber. and the racism. Best of all, their autopilot feature learns your sleep patterns and makes adjustments to improve your sleep in real time. It even detects when you're snoring and lifts your head a few inches to help you breathe better. That's why eight has been clinically proven to add up to 1 hour of quality sleep per night. They have a 30-day sleep trial, so you can buy it and sleep on it for 29 nights. If you don't like it, they will give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to $350 off the pod 5 by going to the link in the description below or heading to eight.com/modernwisdism and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's ei.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom a checkout. Is there a is there a mirroring of Helen of Troy being so very desirable, being whisked away, being stolen, and now this is a new version of the same a similar kind of tension. >> Yeah, totally. I mean, that's kind of the story that there's all these like Homer lays out all these kind of other versions of women making different choices to sort of highlight what Penelopey could do if if she goes off track and why >> unheard of. >> No, no. And and uh you know, there's a story that that he um well, we'll get to it in a moment that all the kind of you know, gruesome counter examples. Um so, so it is this mimemetic. I think that's that's one of the reasons why she's just not impressed by any of these young lads because she knows what they're trying to do, right? Like they're trying to usurp the status of the greatest hero alive maybe ever by just, you know, picking off his wife and then I'll have Adysius's wife and you know the Teimu Adysius. >> Teimu Adicius. >> Teu. Yeah. Like the the Chinese knockoff of Adysius, right? >> And uh they're like, "Hey," she goes, "I've got the I don't need your like Huawei phone. I've got Yeah. >> Got an iPhone. >> Yeah. And she's like, "Oh, they're they're like, "Oh, sweetie, iPhones are dead." You know, they're never coming back. You got to >> Huawei. No, it's just backordered. It's backorded. I believe I believe. Um so so uh I think that's why that it's she doesn't want it to have anything to do with any any of them, but she's kind of wondering like is he actually ever coming back? So >> there's there's a kind of dramatic tension there. >> What's that like for the son to be around this situation? Well, you know, the suitors have been there for like four years. Um, they haven't been there the whole time, but uh, you know, he's he was 16 maybe when they came and he's, um, he's he's far outnumbered. Uh, he doesn't feel like he's in control of his own house. And in fact, it's kind of anarchy. Like anarchy, you know, when when the patriarchy is removed, you know, Penelopey doesn't just like suddenly step in and become the man of the house. It doesn't work like that in Greece at least. It's it's kind of the rule of the most assertive at the time which is these suitors and there's a kind of jockeying for status among them. But certainly Tymicus is the bottom of the food chain as far as they're concerned because they outnumber him and they're older and um and so he doesn't feel like he can reassert himself. And and this is exactly where Athena comes in to try to twist the situation. So um she comes down herself. She know Zeus sends Hermes to go and sort out Adysius with Calypso. But Athena comes herself in disguise as as a man mental alter ego and shows up at Tmicus' house at Adysius's house one day and um you know she doesn't get greeted at the gates which is very bad hospitality. So, so the suitors are uh abusing the hospitality of the house. >> And um they're actually not doing this whole courtship thing the way you're supposed to. Like the right thing to do from from the Greek perspective would have been to go and talk to Penelopey's dad and say, "All right, well, she's eligible now. Like, which which one of us do you approve of?" but instead they're they're just eating away at the the cows and enjoying the the fruits of the um the estate of of Adysius's house. They're they're eating him out of house and home, eating Tmicus out of house and home. >> They're being bad guests and they're not being good hosts. They're not acting like they own the place on all these levels. So when when >> Athena gets there, she's just sort of like left hanging even though she looks really respectable. And this is this is just seen as incredibly bad fauxpaw. And Tmicus greets her and he's he's like visibly annoyed that um that these people haven't greeted her and and he extends her hospitality. He welcomes her in and >> and uh and she you know, long story short, she says um you know, he explains the situation. She's like, you know, my boy, have you heard of the story of what arresties did? And Tyica says, "No, tell me." Well, Arrestes was the son of Agamemnon. Agamemnon was the king of the Greek, the the leader of the Greeks at Troy, the the the biggest of the kings. He organized the expedition to t capture Helen. And they won. And when when he came back, like practically upon arrival, he gets murdered by his own wife who was seduced by his cousin who wanted to steal the throne from Agamimnon. >> And so, um, Agamemnon's murdered by his cousin and his own his own lovely wife, Kaidumnestra. And then they rule Argos in his absence for a few years. and then arrestes his son, sneaks back in and murders them both, murders his own mother and his uncle and takes back Argos for the bloodline of Agamemnon. >> And Athena says, "You might have to do just such a thing with these suitors." >> So, she's trying to stir him up by this example of, you know, is she trying to create a rift between him and his mother? >> I don't think I don't think that's what's going on. You could have read it in that way using that example, right? >> Yeah. But it it does kind of point to the issue of, hey, you know, your mom has her own mind and she could go astray. Like you have to be the man in the situation no matter what. >> Uh and you have to be dangerous. You have to be become a man of violence potentially. You have to be you have to be able to scare these guys. >> Okay. So Athena's come in to [ __ ] block 108 suitors. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. and and and to you know get get Tmicus to to man up finally and you know go on his his quest. And basically she's she says here's what you got to do. Confront the suitors. Uh call out their injustice and then get out of town and go and meet some of your dad's friends. Meet some of Adysius's old buddies on the mainland. And this is what he does in short. And um and so he goes and he meets uh Nester, this old guy, the one of the wisest of the Greeks, very old um very talkative old man. It's kind of funny. Um and Netor at Pyos tells Tmicus some news. He hasn't heard about Adysius other than he got he got uh uh you know blown by the storm off into oblivion. Nobody knows what happened to him. But but Nester tells Tmicus about um gives some more details about Agamemnon actually which is interesting for for the bigger plot. So when Agamemnon uh left uh to go to Troy he left his wife was really good when he left. Clay Nestra is a wise woman. She's well born. She was actually the sister of Helen >> who also started off good. You know >> this is kind of the threat. You know, good women can go wrong if the cir if the circumstances are are [snorts] uh are wrong. >> What did he do to keep her on the straight and narrow? He left a bard there to to look after her. So, Agamenon kind of left a Homer there with his wife Clydeestra to tell her improving stories and tell her stories of what goes wrong when when women behave badly or whatever it is. But you know the poet is sort of seen as this upholder of the moral order and >> slightly self- serving by Homer there. >> You know you might think of it as probard propaganda. Um I think that would be fair but it it it is not just Homer that thinks this. This is a very deep Greek idea that you know go you could see it in Plato you could see it in the tragedians and it's like the poets are kind of especially in an oral culture um poets are the ones who remember the things that need to be passed down from generation to generation right so they kind of they have a lot of moral credibility if they're good ones and you know there could be bad ones too but as soon so basically Ajistus a Agamemnon's cousin knew that he couldn't get to Clyde. He kept kind of making advances at his his cousin's wife and she just kept swatting him away and then he realized ah the poet is the problem. So he captures the poet and he sends him off to a desert island and then Clyde was morally defenseless and that's when a justice swooped in and seduced her because the poet was away. Um, so yeah, there I think this really does match how how the Greeks would have thought of like why you need epic epic poetry. It's like it is actually a kind of moral pillar of society. >> Um, so anyway, he, you know, Nester says that's all I know, but Menaus is alive. Go talk to Menaaus. Maybe he knows more. Um, and you know, another Greek hero from Troy. Uh, Tmicus goes talk to Menaaus and he actually meets Helen of Troy. So, she's she's back to being Helen of Sparta at this point. She's, you know, she's come back and >> repatriated. Re repatriate. Yeah. Returned to her rightful owner. Um, so, uh, yeah. And Helen, it's a really interesting interaction with Helen. still kind of she's kind of chasened. Uh, you know, she's she's become a matriarch instead of a maiden, but she's still kind of got that spooky allure fem fatal charm. She gives Tmicus uh uh she slips some some some kind of drug into his drink at one point so he can enjoy himself better at this party that they're at. They're throwing a big feast when he arrives, marrying off their uh Menaaus's two kids. >> And they start to tell stories and um and and Helen >> puts a drug in his drink that would make any man forget about all desire of returning home. And even if his parents were slaughtered before his eyes, he would not care until the next day. It's this kind of like uh I think it's symbolic of you know the the the power of the female charms over over a man. Um Helen of Troy not showering herself in glory across these two books. fact definitely rolling some dice into the into the fray. >> And and and the interesting thing too is she if I could quibble with Emily Wilson on a translation point here into the mo the more popular Odyssey uh translation these days. So Helen says she's the first person to recognize Tyicus. It's it's it's common to not like to you welcome in a guest before you ask them who they are. Only after you've fed them and you know given them some you know a nice robe to wear whatever then do you ask them who they are but Helen recognizes Tmicus immediately and she says if I'm not mistaken you are the son of Adysius who Adysius left as a tiny infant when the Greeks all came to Troy to um to take me back the shameless one and the Greek there actually says It could be translated as shameless [ __ ] The kunop is the is the Greek word means dogf face. It's a very rude thing. She calls herself, you know, a [ __ ] or something like it it's she kind of insults herself and it's um it's really disarming, I think. So, um Emily Wilson translated that line as something like um they came to take me back the the one who who hounded them or something. >> It so the hound is kind of an illusion to the dog piece, but >> it kind of softens the fact that Helen is really kind of >> slightly more flattering. >> Yeah, it's more but the point is she seduces you by saying the bad thing that you had in mind about her. How can this woman just, you know, pretend like we don't all know the terrible things she did? And that's the first thing she names and just like, oh, >> you can get away with anything with enough self-awareness. >> Yeah. Yeah. She kind of insults herself to to to draw you in. >> And [clears throat] she does this in the Iliad, too. She's she's a really tricky woman. Um, but, you know, she's behaving herself and um, Menaaus seems happy. There's a little bit of there's a little bit of tension between the two of them. It's a really interesting scene, book four. Um but but the point of this whole quest to sum up the Tmicus piece is he has to prove himself to the peers of his father when his father's not ab not not there and he does this by you know making the journey asking about his dad and say I'm I'm just trying to get my house in order and kind of behaving himself well. He, you know, he's he acts very tactfully. He's pious. And, you know, they're always in this this trip, the the houses that he meets are all these well-ordered households. There's this great contrast with the chaos at home. And one of the things that signals that they're wellordered is there's always there's all these sacrifices to the gods. Like every time before a meal, they pray to the gods, they wash their hands, they have a sacrifice. Never never do the suitors pray before a meal. you know, it's a sign they're uh godless. They're godless. They're they're chaotic. They're not doing what they're supposed to be doing. >> So, um >> Homer cares a lot about these things in the in the in more in the Odyssey than he does about the Iliad. These like little things that sort of signal, you know, good order in in culture and society. >> Mhm. Okay. And is that the end of this right of passage? >> Yeah. So that's that's basically the Menaaus invites Tmicus to stay as long as he wants and Tmicus says, "I got to get back. You've been very kind. I could stay here a whole year. It's it's so nice." Menas is like one of the richest Greeks drugging me. >> Yes. Uh I've had a really good time, let me tell you. >> But uh I got to get back to Middleas offers him these horses. It's like really nice. It's it's like offering a kid a Ferrari, you know. Um and and Tmica says, "You know, my island is not horse country. It's goat country. There's there's no no place to ride around horses. It's an ugly scraggly little island. Um and but that's home for me." And I don't know. He he has to he knows he has to get back and take on the challenge and like suffer to to become who he is. >> But that that is the kind of end of it. And while he's away, it should be mentioned the suitors also plan. They find out that he snuck off and they plan to ambush him with a ship on his way back and murder him. So, he's he's got a target painted on him. >> What a bunch of bastards. >> They are again and again, Homer wants you to know these guys are bad. All of them are bad. They deserve everything that's coming to them. Most people don't realize how much being dehydrated impacts their performance. Which is why for the last 5 years, I've started pretty much every morning with Element. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. This orange salt in a cold glass of water is like a sweet, salty, orangey nectar. 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I think the odyssey >> good men bad men absence of good men means that there's a vacuum for bad men to step in >> 100%. And I think there's a kind of broader arc of the the Odyssey is about the the clash between order and entropy and um and sort of dissolution of complex societies into kind of barbaric or animal uh you know soup. Mhm. >> And the suitors kind of represent those forces of of violence and and turmoil and primordial soup out of which order needs to be established sometimes sometimes violently. >> Yeah. >> And that and that's justice. That's importantly to establish that is about justice. >> Okay. And then we switch and Adysius wakes up one day on Calypso's island, needs to get home, >> staring off into the ocean, sitting there weeping. um longing for his homeland. >> Calypso is, you know, this incredibly hot divine goddess who uh he's he's washed up a shore on her island and she offered him hospitality and basically they've been sleeping together for the past 8 years. >> Okay. >> But Adysius points out, never did they win the heart within me. So >> got my penis but not my heart. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was just sex baby, you know. >> [gasps] >> And I Homer seems to take this as as an acceptable explanation. >> We're going to darken the environment appropriately. >> Just kidding. It's about to get spooky. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Uh so so that's Yeah. He wakes up. It's book five. Um and and Hermes arrives as as he was sent from from Zeus. And Hermes goes to Calypso first. Well, first he gets to the island and he's just stunned. It's so beautiful. It's just lush fruit trees and pleasant breeze and verdant and perfect. Not too hot, not too cold. It's not like Houston humid. It's just like uh >> So what people are saying, >> it's like [laughter] arrives and he goes, "I'm so glad I'm not in [ __ ] Houston." >> Yeah. >> Well, well, you know, Houston is humid, but there's no there's no place sweeter than one's homeland. Yeah. [laughter] >> So, >> so uh the even the gods are amazed at how you know beautiful and how nice of a place this would this would be to spend eternity. Which is precisely what Calypso is promising Adysius. She says, "Forget about your wife. Forget about your son. Just stay with me forever. I will make you immortal. And not just immortal, you'll be young and beautiful the rest of your years." Sometimes goddesses for forget to promise the whole youth thing. This there's a a a bad story about this happening with um this guy Tthonus who the goddess Dawn Aos uh managed to get it arranged so that he would be immortal but forgot to ask Zeus that he would be made uh youthful forever. And so he just gets older and older and older decrepit and never dies. He kind of shrinks to a little little bug. >> Always got to read the small print. >> Yeah. Right. And uh you know, you never know when you make a deal with a goddess like there there might be some loophole that that screws you over. Okay. Yeah. It doesn't always it's not always bad. >> Hermes arrives. It's real nice. Uh Adysius has been piping Calypso for ages. >> Yeah. Unwillingly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm sure. >> Um but Hermes says you you got to let him go. And Calypso hims and haws. This is not fair. Uh, he's my he's my boy toy. But she says, "All right, I'll I'll help him get out of here." >> So, like a god says, >> she so she's a she's a nymph, which is which is a divine Yeah, she's she's a goddess basically. Sort of lesser divinity, >> right? >> Um, and um, [snorts] to all to all accounts, very beautiful. I mean, she goes to Adysius after Hermes gives her the bad news and she says, "All right, well, I have to let you go. Zeus told me I have to let you go, but you don't actually have to go. We could still do the whole immortality thing. I mean, what does your wife have that I don't have? And Adysius says, "Look, you're right. You are far more beautiful than my own wife, and this place is really nice, but I miss my homeland, and I I miss my wife and my kid." and she um essentially she's promising him something that like why is this unsatisfying? And it's kind of like you're you're styled that. All right, time to get back to work. But what if the island vacation lasts weeks and weeks and months and months? We've probably all felt that feeling. I think it's it's easy to understand why this offer is like ultimately not appealing to spend the rest of your eternity on this leisurely vacation with a you little umbrella in your drink. Uh but it's it's also like particularly uh pointed for Adysius in the story. Homer Homer gives these people epithets these like recurring adjectives that describe them in the poetry. Odysius is many turned polyropos. He is much like many crafted you know very very crafty polymatis he is also much suffering or much enduring polyas so all of the things about that kind of make Adysius what he is that he's crafty that he's um that he's wellraveled that he's uh that he endures and endures and it's this kind of what makes him >> special and what makes him who he is it's like makes up his identity >> none of that would be true if he stayed on that island he would kind of it would be kind of like a loss of identity. So I I see why it's not appealing. Um but she, you know, she says, "I'll help you go here." She goes to her tool shed >> with a tool shed. That's hot. >> Yeah. Well, that that was a vote of confidence for her. >> Apparently, not not that not that great a conversation, but um practical enough. >> Wonderful. >> She brings him an uh you know, augur, an axe, whatever you need to make a make a make a boat. And uh she says, "All right, here are the tools. There are the trees. Cracker. >> You're on your own. [laughter] So, he has to make his own raft. >> He's here on his own. >> Yeah. >> Completely on his own. >> Totally. Yeah. He's lost all of his comrades at this point. They're all dead. Some Sometimes it's his fault, sometimes it's their fault, sometimes both. But they're all gone. Uh, you know, 12 ships, I think, is what he took to Troy. So, a lot of guys dead. And, um, and he has to make his own boat. And that's that's a really like interesting symbolic moment there. So, Adysius is um we talked about Athena being his patron goddess. Athena is a god of craft. She's a kind of warrior goddess. She's a virgin goddess. She's depicted with the spear and the helmet, but she's she's a warrior goddess in the sense that sometimes you need to win wars through trickery and craft. >> She is also the goddess of like weaving. She's goddess of the olive. Olive tree is a is a very domestic tree. you know, you have to plant it and wait many years before it ever gives you anything worthwhile. And the older and older it gets, the more and more olives it makes. And so it's the sign of civilization. Athena is this goddess of civilization and also kind of a goddess of technology. So the fact that Adysius knows how to make his own boat, a seaorthy boat is is kind of important. It's kind of symbolic that and and and and he's about to go into sea which is the realm of Poseidon who is this god of wild nature. He's the the god of storms at sea, earthquakes, you know, the brute force of nature. And uh so Adysi is going to confront those brute forces, the Poseidon world with the kind of technology of Athena that's really encapsulated well in that image. Um and and this is a really important kind of polarity with throughout the whole story because >> order and chaos again. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and and this is actually the Greeks really think of the world in these binaries. You know, there's uh um civilization and barbarism, nature and culture, male and female. Um there is uh cooked and raw. you know, do do the people here eat eat their food cooked or do they eat it raw? That's kind of a dividing point between man and animal or man and kind of wild men. So, um you know, Adysius is clearly on one side of that through through throughout the story. Um and uh and we'll see why that matters in a little bit, but so he he he escapes the island of Calypso. He has to kind of and he has to do it nicely, too, right? like he has to have an amicable breakup because you you don't want to piss off a goddess if you don't have to. Uh and then he gets to this island of >> he's built the ship. >> So he's built the boat. Yes. He builds the raft. Uh not a great raft, but it's seaorthy. And he's at sea for, you know, he ends up being at sea for 20 days sailing, sailing, sailing. And at some point, Poseidon finishes his party with the Ethiopians, and he's like, "What the hell?" And he smashes Adysius's raft with a storm. And Adysius eventually has to swim to see to swim to to shore. Um he Calypso gave him all these, you know, fine luxurious robes as a parting gift. And he has to take all that off because because if he keeps it on, he's going to sink and die. So he he ends up kind of scrambling ashore on this new land totally naked. Um which I think is very symbolic. It's a kind of death and rebirth. Yeah. Almost like baptism. >> And he gets to shore and just collapses underneath an olive bush. And then he wakes up because a ball bounced into the grass next to him. And uh he discovers that he's he's on a civilized place. There are humans there. In fact, a bunch of, you know, attractive new young ladies are washing washing some clothes in this little river. >> And um and so he, you know, has to come up with a plan at that point like uh so >> this is a great scene because he basically the the next couple of stages for his journey have to do just like kind of like treating Calypso well uh to to the extent he could. He has to he has to really use women's agency to get him what he needs next to get home to to to accomplish this goal. >> And the first girl that he first woman he meets happens to be the princess of the island. She's the the daughter of the of the king and queen as he finds out. Her name is now Sika. There's a lot of uh like paintings of this scene. I mean many scenes of the Odyssey, but this one in particular, um, Adysius is stark naked and, um, he emerges from his bush and he holds a little like branch in front of his private parts so that uh, to to have a little bit of dignity and, you know, approaches these girls and all of them just like scream and run away because he looks horrific. I mean, he he probably looks like Tom Hanks from from Castaway at this point. And he's caked in brine and uh you know, they're thinking, "Is this guy gonna try to savage >> savage us? Ravage us?" >> Oh, please no. [laughter] [gasps] >> Mr. Seaman, don't savage me. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> And that that is an aspect of it. There's this kind of like tension. So, all the all the girls run away except >> the the the princess. Now Sika is like she's taller than the rest. She's more attractive than the rest. She's clearly like braver than the rest. And she's just like standing there waiting for him to explain himself. And and she's 20ish, Homer tells us. And you know, he tells he kind of builds up to this. She's actually she went down to the to the coast thinking about marriage with like marriage on her mind. She wants to like clean some clothes and look nice and sort of make an appearance around town and see if see if any of the young men want to, you know, make a pass at her. She's she's ready to kind of move on to the next stage. And so, you know, Adysius addresses her from a few feet off. Uh, wow, fair maiden, uh, princess, I don't know whether you're a goddess or immortal. Wow, you are just I've never seen anything like you. You're so beautiful. One time I saw something that was almost as beautiful as you. It was this little palm tree uh that that grew up by the altar of Apollo at Dos and I was leading many men there. So, you know, he's kind of giving him giving her a little backstory about himself as as a respectable man. And he says, "Uh, may your parents or your brothers be happy if you're immortal and may you find a great husband." You know, kind of playing on the tension a little bit. and could you please get me a towel uh and show me to the town [laughter] and uh she's kind of flattered like it wor he's charmed her he's like already got her charmed and and he doesn't refer to the fact that he's got a wife and kid at home. She's just kind of concealing that and uh you know kind of you know luring her in a little bit and she you know long story short she she ends up um telling him what he needs to do and that is go talk to my mom the queen. [gasps] Not that she totally runs the show but she's kind of like the back door to get to the king. Her mom is a Rete. um who is the um the prince, the the queen of the island and Adysius makes his way there and he kind of sneaks into the palace alone. Uh she does give him more than a towel. She actually, you know, her handmaidaidens like give him some actual clothes and some oil to rub himself. He takes a bath in the river so he looks a little better, >> less like a, you know, wild sea man. and he sneaks in and he and he embraces Arete by the knees and says, "Oh, lady, I've I've traveled many days and been shipwrecked and I just trying to make my way home. I please I supplicate you. Zeus is the god of supplants. Would you please help me?" Blah blah blah. And uh he speaks well and and and she says, "All right, stranger. You you seem like a decent, noble man. Uh let me introduce you to my husband." She introduces him to Alcinois the king and Adysius just like you know charisma 11 out of 10 like he charms his way into the ruling family of of the island uh just with his words and in fact before they even know his name they offer their daughter in marriage to him just gives you a sense of this is what he's famous for right persuasion [snorts] um but he you know if if he had screwed it up with the princess if he had screwed it up with her mother, he could have he could have lost his head. Basically, if he had offended him somehow, if he had, you know, savaged or given any hint of savaging, it would have been over for him. So, these women have power, but they're dangerous, too. You know, they could go either way. >> And um and then uh basically uh they they throw a feast for him. They say, "We'll we'll get you home. We're going to send you home." and he declines the the marriage invitation, of course. Let's let's get you on one of our magic ships. They have these magic ships, but um first, let's have a feast for you. And so, they throw this big party and they invite all the all the special people from the town. And that's where he tells his story eventually at that at that party. This episode is brought to you by Whoop. According to my Whoop, I've tracked nearly 2,000 days of my life. And the thing that still gets me is that I could have predicted almost every bad day before it happens. That's because Whoop gives you a complete picture of your health every single day. Your sleep, your workouts, your recovery, your breathing, your heart rate, even your steps. And over time, you get to see what's working and what isn't. And the Whoop 5.0 is the best version yet. It's 7% smaller. You get more than 2 weeks of battery life from a single charge. It's got health span tracking to see how your daily habits affect your pace of aging. It's even got hormonal insights for the women that are listening. I'm a huge fan. This thing rules. 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I mean would Agamimnon have have uh charmed his way in with this young princess? I don't know. I mean maybe >> uh but but this is [clears throat] this is the arts of Athena. And this is actually is actually these these kind of things, these kind of tricky cany things are what he's going to need to eventually uh clean out the suitors and get his get his home back. So [snorts] yeah, it's this is he is a hero who can't use violence in his great arc. Mhm. >> A little bit of violence, but mostly it's it's like trickery and um in places where he's just he's just vastly out outmatched in force. >> Um there's this this is the the the moment actually when he's at this party at the fatian's house um where we meet Demodicus, the blind bard. There's some athletic games. You know, the theatians challenge him to show his stuff and he's like, "No, just leave me alone. I'm I'm I'm tired. I was 20 20 days at sea and like, "Oh, come on. What? You probably can't even throw a discus." And he's like, "All right, punks." And he stands up and he he chucks this giant discus way bigger than any of the other discuses, way further than any other kids. And he he shows them up. But then um after the meal, they're relaxing and listening to the bar at Femas. He tells a few stories, some of them famous. He tells a story of Aries and Aphrodite. uh Aries, you know, stealing Hefisusis's wife away and these very pregnant sort of tales of what goes wrong when the husband is away. Putting that fear in your mind like what is going to happen? >> But then after the last story, Adysius himself asks the bard Deodicus to tell the story of the Trojan horse and nobody knows who he is yet. They still don't know. M >> and Demonicus tells the story and you know everybody knows it but the Greeks build a horse they put a bunch of you know warriors in there Adysius included it was Adysius's plan the other Greeks go off to an island the Trojans see this horse and they think it's u some kind of talisman of power various versions of like why did they bring this giant horse into their walls but they do it and they bring it up to the citadel doors close at night the Greeks slip out open the gates Cidious act. Long story short, but it's interesting while Demoticus is telling this story. Adysius, I mean, apparently he's a good bard, you know, tragic. Adysius just starts crying and um he's trying [snorts] to be be discreet about it, but Homer says he weeps like a woman who's lost her husband at war and whose city has been sacked and she's been being led away by her capttors. >> So it's almost like he's he's weeping like the victims of the tragedy he inflicted upon Troy. A very kind of poignant moment. Does that mean that he's sort of having sympathy for the people that he destroyed at Troy? >> And Homer kind of leaves it open, >> but Alcinois can can tell the king. >> Yeah. You know, maybe that's enough epic poetry for tonight. Our guest is uh very tired. Uh he can see him >> hysterical. [laughter] So, um, so he says, "Um, stranger, I I could tell that the story was bothering you. Did you have a brother or or a or a cousin, perhaps a father who went off to fight at Troy?" You know, right after they've heard the story of how Adysius sacked Troy and Adysius says, "All right, I'll tell you who I am at last." And that's when the the great narrative begins in book book nine, >> which is, I think, the the high point, the best part of the story. And um and [snorts] Adysius is kind of playing the bard here notably. He's doing he's basically let he's allowed to be Homer for four books just narrating these amazing tales >> filating himself. >> Yeah. Well, [laughter] [gasps] I mean and he doesn't always come off as the best guy in the stories which is interesting. Uh but you know they do they do shine a good light on him. He's he learns from his mistakes. Um and um and and there's a moment there's a pause in the in the storytelling at this book 11 where everybody's just like, you know, gawking, jaws dropped, and he's he's enchanted the room just like Homer enchanted the room. >> What's he telling? He's telling the story of Troy. >> So his he he says, "I'm Adysius. I was kept by Cersei and Calypso, but they never they never uh swayed the heart in me. um I'm from Ithaca. I'm just trying to make my my way back to Ithaca. It's a crappy rocky island. Um but you know, everyone's homeland is most dear to them. Blah blah blah. And then he tells the story of right after they left Troy, what happened on the return journey. And um you know, some of the familiar faces appear now. They try to have a a cattle raid on these thrians Konace. And it goes well for a while. And then the the thrians invite their friends and you know basically slaughter and chase all the Greeks back to their ships and Adysius has to kind of run tail between his legs back to his ships and they they go on. So it's the first sign that things aren't aren't going to go perfectly. >> Um and then they they meet the lotus eaters. >> That's the next people they meet. Um very very tempting uh um a very a very tempting spot, you know, British podcasters who just talk about culture issue all all day, you know. >> But uh no, the lotus eaters are are basically like ptheads, I think. And um the the lotus flower just makes you want to forget your return journey home and just sit and eat lotus until you die. >> [snorts] >> uh kind of like opium or they they were aware of opium, but that that's and then the next monster they meet, you know, it's clear that they're sort of being tempted as they're traveling back and um and they get blown off course to this island of of the cyclopses. And that's that's like the the grand I think that one of the the best the best stories of of this whole journey that brings all a lot of these themes to to the four. Um why? >> Well, okay. Cyclopses are Emily Wilson translates uh cyclopses a couple places in her translation as cyclopian people. like they're uh like people people of color, >> you know, temporarily uh afflicted with being oneeyed monsters. I don't know her her take >> a very DEI approach to [laughter] a story from 3,000 years ago. >> Yeah, I know Emily. She's she's a good scholar. She's she's good to her people. I I I like to take some pot shots at her translations cuz I mean like her take would be the Cyclopses are kind of uh you know Odysius is this Greek colonizer and he's looking at everything through the kind of you know Greek man colonizer lens and then all these people that he meets are just they're just like people and they're strange but you know maybe they have their own way of doing things but and the Cyclops's way of doing things is to be a giant oneeyed monster that eats people. So >> um >> okay so that's the indigenous wisdom of the >> right [laughter] of the cyclopses. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. All right. Um but uh and he plays his trick on the cyclops, you know, he goes and they go in the cave and um the cyclopsh [sighs] eats eats some of his men and traps traps Adysius and his men with this big rock. >> So you're watching the you're watching the troops of Adysius dwindle after each different >> round after round. And I think the Cyclops story is really interesting because the way that Adysius describes it is they are um they they live in little uh family units. They do not care about the gods. They they think Zeus is a chump. And um every man is a law to his own wife and children. So they're they're giant forceful men that think law and order is is you know for [ __ ] >> and you know they're kind of like extreme libertarians. You know they don't have a social order other than the household >> and this makes them vulnerable. This makes them underestimate the power of of trickery. >> They're not coordinated. They're not unified. >> Yeah. Exactly. and and they so the Cyclops himself, Polyphimas, is is the one that Adysius faces. He had actually heard a prophecy that someday some man named Odysius would come and blind him. [gasps] And and after he gets blinded, he tells this story and he's sort of raging. Uh he says, "I was not a prophet once came and told us that I would get blinded by a man named Adysius, but I thought he would be a strong man, not some little pipsqueak, you know." Uh, so he was he was not on guard for craft. They're they're they're men of force. Again, it's this this binary of like force and wildness versus cleverness and civilization. And Adysius tricks him, you know, after they're trapped in the in the cave and Cyclops is kind of gradually eating the men that Adysius brought with him and making him watch. Adysius gives him some wine, some really good wine. And the cyclops just doesn't have the cultural antibodies of of moderation, you know, and he just it's like giving whiskey to the Native Americans or whatever. Like >> exactly what I was thinking. >> He just he just slams it. Y >> he gets really drunk and he says, "Stranger, this is really good stuff." And he says, "Your gift your your your guest friend gift." Cyclops is a very bad host, too. Kind of like the suitors. Your gift is going to be I I'll eat you last. Yeah. Congratulations. Passes out drunk. And meanwhile, Odysius has made this this um spear or this kind of like stake, a six-foot stake that he's he's carved uh while the Cyclops was away tending his sheep and hardened with a point in the fire. I mean, it's a very kind of like technological sort of act, too. Kind of like building the ship. >> Yeah. More craft. >> Yeah. More craft. and you know they stab him when he's drunk in the eye and he's blinded and um so you know moving on that's how he defeats the Cyclops craft and oh and of course that's how he gets cursed in the first place because he makes the mistake as they're kind of sailing away from the Cyclopses island. The Cyclops is foaming at the mouth and raging at them. Where are they? Where are they? Um, Adysius says, uh, well, he he told him I should have probably mentioned the famous trick. Uh, when he introduces himself, he says, "My name is nobody." And then when the Cyclops gets stabbed in the eye, he calls out to his fellow Cyclops libertarians in the other households and he says, "Nobody is is hurting me. Nobody is just, you know, uh, forcefully harming me." and and they say, "Well, if nobody's hurting you, then that's just tough luck. You know, maybe you're sick and Zeus just makes people suffer. There's nothing we can do about it." >> Oh, very funny. So, and there's actually a play on words there because uh if you get into the like the Greek when when they say when he says nobody's hurting me, uh it's utus. Nobody is ut the no in an if clause. So the cyclopses, the other cyclopses respond, if nobody is killing you, then the ooh, the negative changes to a may. So it's if matis is killing you, and if trickery is killing you is is how it sounds. >> It's it's uh it's two words in in their mouth, but we hear it as one word. Oh, trickery is killing you. So basically, you know, it's just a very funny like way of saying trickery killed him and not violence or or trickery, you know, blasted his eyes on to it. >> Yeah. How'd he get cursed? >> Uh so yeah, he gets cursed by uh basically giving the cyclops his name. He says, "If anybody asks you how you got blinded, tell them Odysius did it." And Polyphimma says, "Ah, I knew it. I knew it." And then he says, "Father Poseidon." And Dissus is like, "What? Father Poseidon?" Poseidon is the father of Polyphimas, the Cyclops. Little did he know >> his son. >> Little did he know that he was blinding the son of the sea god Poseidon. [gasps] And so [clears throat] Polyphimas curses him. May he never get home or may he uh have a really, really, really, really hard time and lose all of his companions. And Poseidon listened. And that's what happened. Jared, you ever considered that you might have a drinking problem? >> I don't consider a lot, Chris. 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Bottoms up. >> [laughter] >> This is locked in on him still telling the story. So everybody sat around. >> Yeah. >> Mouths open. >> Yeah. >> Holy [ __ ] This is an epic story. >> Yeah. >> And um time is a I mean this is only one of the is like a fourth of the way through his long storytelling. So it's it's really an epic narrative. >> Yeah. >> Uh maybe a couple more episodes are worth kind of highlighting. So, um, eventually they make their way their way to this other island, Cersei's Island. And here's another strange woman that he has to deal with. Cersei is um a divine witch goddess, sort of like Calypso style, but but a little bit more a little bit more kind of dangerous or dark. And the Odysius sends his men into the island. They see smoke coming up from this hut and um and he sends his men in. He waits at the ships. The men go. They find this hut in this clearing and there are wolves and lions just prowling around like tame animals. Strange. And then there's this, you know, enchanting lady bustling around her hut singing these strange songs. They Oh, she sees them. Oh, gentlemen, please. right this way. And they go and uh accept her hospitality. She feeds them and she whacks them all in the head with a magic wand and turns them into pigs. So, [clears throat] one of the men escapes as a pig. >> As a human, right? >> He doesn't go in. All the other guys are pigs. He just hustles back to Odysius, tells him what happened. >> [ __ ] in there. There's this chick. She's got a wand. All the guys are pigs. We shouldn't go. >> Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's party immediately. Go go go to the ship. This is like >> almost as bad as that Cyclops guy. >> Yeah. Yeah. And this happens a few times on the journey. People are like, "Please, Adysius, can we just leave?" He's like, "No, I just want to see what what might be uh in store for us here. Maybe they want to give me a present." [laughter] >> So, um, and then this is another one of those instances, but he he he he draws his sword and he's like ready for action. charges in and Hermes stops him. He says, "Adysius, if you go in there, you're just going to become a pig. She's going to turn you into a pig. Stop and let me let me help you." And he pulls out of the ground this root. And it's well, it's a plant with black root and a white flower. He says, "This is moly." And this is not where we get the word holy moly, but if that helps you remember. Yeah, I know. I I looked it up. like that's it's too good. No, it is too good. But um but it is you know famous plant and he he tells Adysius the nature of this plant is what Homer said the fus of this plant is the feces where we get the word physics you know nature in Greek and uh a lot of philosophers have made a lot about this. We could we could maybe go into it but this the first occurrence of the word nature like the idea that there is a nature that things have natures is a sort of like that's an idea that had to develop >> but Hermes tells him the secret of this plant and um and Odysius like you know rubs it on himself or eats some. It's not really clear what but it's it's an antidote to her magic. And so he goes in, you know, the the pigs and the wolves and the lions are there and Cersei beckons him in and she feeds him and he plays dumb. And then when she tries to whack him with the magic wand and turn him into a pig, nothing happens. And she's like, he stands up and he draws his sword. He's like, "All right, Cersei, Jig is up." And um she's like, "How did you how did you you know avoid my magic?" And uh and then she asks him as as you might expect to go to bed with her. Uh and Hermes had warned him that this might happen. She she's going to ask you to go to bed with her. You got to do it. No choice. >> Take one for the team, dude. And pipe the pig lady. Come on now. >> Man up. >> Yeah. >> And [clears throat] uh he says, "But she's actually trying to unman you. It's a trick maybe. Who knows? But you got to get her to swear an oath that she's not going to harm you. And Adysius makes her swear and know, "All right, we'll go to bed, but you know, no harm to me or my companions and you got to change him back." And so she says, "Fine." They still go to bed. And uh then she changes his men back and >> Dus puts a shift in. >> Yeah. You know, >> the only the only people that Adysius hasn't had sex with so far have been Cyclops, as far as I can see. >> Yeah. Well Well, and who knows? the one telling the story. >> The Adysius sex tour thus far. Matt Damon's really got his work cut out for him. >> Known known the minds of many people, many many men and women. Um >> Yeah. >> And uh so you know, he's he's he's taking one for the team day after day after day and it takes about a year. [laughter] She's she's changed them back into men and and you know, look, it's a nice place, right? They get the food and there's fun little pets to play with. But the men are like, "All right, Adysius, >> it's been a year. You're having a good time. Uh, this is a fine enough place, but we kind of miss our homes. Can we get out of here?" And so he makes her uh help him get on to the next stage. And the next stage, as she explains, is if you really want to get home, you have to go on a deeper, darker quest to the underworld. [gasps and sighs] And um basically he has to go consult this he has to go consult this prophet Tyresius who's dead this blind another blind wise person who's died famous thean Tyreseius and to get to him you know you don't go down to the underworld in the Odyssey you go out and so you have to sail many days and so long story short he he sails many days you know it gets misty and weird and uh they run around finally on this strange land and he has to do this right. Dig a trench with his sword and put honey and milk and barley and he has to sacrifice some lambs and drain their blood out into the hole and uh and then the the ghosts of the dead come. So like you go out and then the underworld comes to you. Um and this is I think this is one of the best scenes in the whole book. But, you know, all of these wraiths come, these like gibbering wraiths, and they're they're not intelligible. Um, and they're kind of they're not like they're not like souls, like your full identity is there. They're sort of I don't know, insubstantial uh remnants of people, you might say. But to basically to get them to speak to him, he has to let them drink this, you know, concoction in the ditch which includes blood. So they get they get blood and they kind of have a little moment of of liveless so they can actually speak face to face to Adysius. >> And the first one he talk well the first one he talks to is this guy Alpenor who fell off the roof and died. And Adysius, will you bury me? Yes. All right. Next. Then he talks to Tyresius. And Tyreseius um tells him, [clears throat] you know, you're going to get home fine if if you can keep your hands and your mouth off that's came out wrong off the cows of the sun. And you're going to you're going to run around on this island, the cattle of the sun. If you can restrain yourself and your men, you'll get home. But if you eat of the cows of the sun, you're going to get blasted and die. So, it's going to take more kind of restraint to get home. And he says also um you know, you're he tells him about the suitors who haven't actually arrived on the scene, but he's he's a prophet. And so, it's going to be really really tough to get back home. And Adysius says, "All right, thank you." And um he there's also this other prophecy about a quest he has to go on, which we can omit for now. It's a it's a very strange scene, but um after that he he meets his mom like his his mother has died since he's left and he meets his mom. He lets her drink the blood. He tries to embrace her um but you know his hands go right through her and she tells him that's how it is with the dead. You can't you can't embrace a dead person. And she kind of, you know, explains to him how the whole afterlife thing works. And um which I think is important for Homer somehow that that that that the knowledge that upholds civilization includes this kind of metaphysical stuff that's >> weird afterlife stuff. That's my read at least. And then I think one of the most interesting things that is not often pointed out the the first group of the dead. So he meets while he's down there, he meets the ghost of Achilles, ghost of Agamemnon, Hercules, a few other guys. But the first people that he meets are not these heroes, these famous heroes from from the Iliad. It's these famous women, the mother of Amphon who built the walls of thieves. Um, see, a few other mortals who had bedded with gods and and as he's kind of letting them drink of the blood and conversing with them, it's almost like he's satisfying his curiosity. You know, he's a very like intellectually capacious man. He wants to know everything. He's that kind of guy. And all of these women come and they tell him the stories of their sons or their fathers, their brothers. They they kind of tell him about these heroes that he wouldn't otherwise have access to. [sighs and gasps] And um you know, I had a I had a friend pass away a long time ago. was a little older than me and it was kind of a mentor. And after he died, I think I help this this moment kind of helped me realize this. After he died, I I was hanging out with his mom after the funeral and she was just telling me all these stories about him as a young man that I never really understood why he was so impressive or what what he had to go through. And um I think I think that this is kind of about how how women fit into the story of the making of a hero. >> You know, it it seems really important to me now. I never noticed it until that happened. Uh but they're sort of serving that role. Um narrating the the deeds of their of their family, upholding order. Um all right. And there's one more person I want to mention while he's down there among the dead is he meets Achilles. And this is this is the moment where you you see this tension between the Iliad and the Odyssey >> where Homer kind of poses the question, what is worth striving after? [sighs and gasps] Achilles died young. He traded a long life for eternal glory. He ma he faced that choice in the Iliad and he made his choice and the Iliad says that was the right choice. But when Adysius meets the ghost of Achilles, he says, "Wow, uh you were so glorious in life, Achilles. It's it's amazing to meet you now that you're dead. We we we mourned you very much." And Achilles says to Adysius, uh don't don't make light of death in front of me. I would rather be a slave, a hire, a hireling, a hireling of a man with no land to his name. Buloy Main uh Kaparo Seonalo Andre Parakle Ometos Puz I would rather be a hired servant uh lowest status person on earth than be king of the dead. So it's what does that mean? Achilles is telling him maybe maybe glory isn't all that it's cracked out to be. >> Maybe Adysius got is getting or has the potential to get the better thing in life which is continuation of his line. The other thing that Achilles says to Adysius is if I had one more day of life, you know what I would do? I would go to my father's house because I have heard there are men in my country insulting my father and I would go and slaughter all of them. I would avenge my father's name. >> And by the way, have you heard any news about my son? So Achilles, you know, this this great, brilliant, glamorous warrior from the Iliad, what he cares about in death is his family. You know, this is this is the thing that matters. I think that's one of the big messages of the Odyssey. What really matters in the long run? What what is permanent? What can you make permanent? Is glory permanent? Is people talking about you far and wide after you died? Is that really permanence? Or is permanence sort of the biological continuation of the household? Yeah, >> Adysius is maybe the greatest hero because he manages to get both of them, which requires cunning and craft and and and force, but also requires luck, you know. Um, [sighs and gasps] so whatever Adysius thought of that, you know, uh, makes his way back to Cersei's Island and and there's more there's more temptations to to face. He has to go through the sirens. Um, Skillet, Kuribdus, they finally meet the cattle of the sun and Dissus falls asleep uh at some, you know, a god puts sleep upon him. Maybe it was faded. And while he's asleep, his men sacrifice and eat all the cattle of the sun. And uh but he doesn't he doesn't eat of the the cursed beef. >> Did he warn the man? >> Yes. Yes, he warned them again and again and they said, "I would rather uh one of his leaders of his men says Adysius is asleep. He's he's been lying to us this whole time about this and that, but you know, maybe he's telling the truth about the cows." Look, I'd rather eat and uh and die than than like starve uh waste away. Like, we're going to die anyway. We might as well have a good time while we do it. M >> uh so as soon as they eat the the cows, the wind starts to blow. They get stuck on this island. That's why they they get hungrier and hungrier. As soon as soon as they eat the cows, the winds start to blow. And you know, they get on the ship, lightning bolt, they all die. Adysius grabs a board and kind of floats to Cersei's or Calypso's island >> and uh and then he ends the story and the Fishians say, "Wow, okay." Um, so will you be packing soon? Let's get you off to your to your homeland. And they send him off on on a ship back to back to back to Ithaca. How easy is the journey? >> That journey is incredibly easy. He sleeps the whole time. He they put him down on the on the boat. He falls asleep. They get all the way to Ithaca. They take him off the boat. He's still asleep. They stick him on the shore and they stick they they loaded him up with gifts. They stick all the gifts there on the shore and you know he wakes up and they're gone. He's like, "Wow." Uh >> he those bastards they left me on a on a What island is this? This doesn't look like my home. Uh but eventually it turns out that it is Ithaca that they left him on. >> It's like he fast traveled in a computer game. Yeah. >> In a video game. He just pressed a button and >> moved on the map from one location to another. >> Yeah. It's it's it's really weird. And I think it's it's kind of like I don't know. It's like was it all a dream? I don't know. He was crossing this boundary from the you know adventurous mythical world where the and the Fishians are kind of close to the gods. They're they don't have um there's no pirates. They have these magical ships. They have maybe these like robot dogs. Um it's not clear. Robot golden dogs um guarding the palace. Uh maybe they can move, maybe they can't. Homer doesn't really specify, but it's it's an eerie, peaceful Shangrila. Uh, again, it's a kind of a temptation like he he could have stayed there and married that hot young girl. It was a real temptation >> and she was, you know, she was like a young Penelopey, too. Good, good, you know, great catch. But [gasps] he had suffering to do. He had more suffering to do. Uh, but, you know, he left that all behind. And I think it's like he's crossing this metaphysical boundary almost between the world of like >> monsters and myth to the world of the harsh reality. >> Where on the hero's journey is he? Is he 6:00? Is he 7:00? >> That's a good question. So yeah, he he Cersei is sort of maybe serving that wise counselor role. Maybe Tyresius is there's a there's a catabsus the descent. >> Uh he's come out with the knowledge that he needs to get back. So he's he's about basically about to face the final boss >> and it's it's a very long facing of the final boss. I mean we're only halfway through the book at this point is back. >> Um but I think it's >> you know you can you can dispense with it a lot quicker. >> Um >> so uh but you know he's he's got to use all of these strategimms that he's been sort of developing through his sufferings because there's 108 suitors in the house. He has no idea if anybody of his servants are still loyal. He has no idea if one of these guys maybe has seduced his wife and they're gonna she's going to play real nice and when he gets home and then they're going to stab him in his bed. >> Yeah. Agamemnon. >> Right. Um when does he meet his son? >> So he Adysius makes his way to the swine herds hutus. He's a you know pig pig tender and uh one of Adysius's slaves but like uh treated him really well. Love the Dissus did um >> and uh he you know offers him hospitality you know the suitors took all the big fat pigs but I can give you a little a little kind of porker and we'll have a nice meal. You know he hosts him for a few days and Adysius doesn't tell him who he is. He he spins this kind of [gasps] [ __ ] andbull story about uh you know getting seized by Phoenicians or something. I mean but he he he's he's keeping his keeping his cards to his chest. >> Um >> and then it just so happens that Tmicus gets back from his travel. He eludes the the kind of ambush somehow that the suitors were trying to launch on him and he uh he actually makes his way to this very swine herds hut and that's where they meet Adysius in disguise at first and then um goes to town and and then while he's away Adysius reveals himself to his son. So the first guy that he reveals who he is to is his son because he needs his son to help him >> launch a plan. And it's like gradually he every, you know, a couple of people find out here and there. The um the nurse Uracle figures it out and he makes her swear to not tell anybody. He eventually tells the swine herd right before they slaughter the suitors. And his wife actually finds out very last, funny enough. M >> um but he goes in he goes into this his palace you know how does he find out about all of the suitors does he see them >> well Tyicus tells him and um tells him what's going on at home and they say you know your wife has been faithful but he doesn't know right he he still wants to test her and he does in disguise >> uh eventually dressed as a beggar you know famously and and he um there's one one or two cool scenes that are worth narrating about this whole arc before the the final gratifying blood bath. The he goes in and he wants to kind of test out the suitor himself. He wants to see it. What is the situation in my palace? And so he goes in dressed as a beggar and he gets harassed by some, you know, goat herd along the way that was a slave of his. And he's like, "All right, remember you." And um and he goes around like begging for food as the suitors are all feasting and having a good time. Didn't wash their hands. Didn't pray before their meal of course. And he he goes and he asks each of them for a little bit of a little morsel. And uh most of them give him a morsel, but one of them this guy Antininois is well one of the kind of chief suitors of the suitors and he says, "Uh get out of here. you're you're just cramping my style. You're you're you're ruining the vibe. You may ask, why did you bring this beggar in here? And Adysius kind of kind of taunts him, but very very subtly. Oh, you know, you you seem like such a lordly prince, Antinuis. Um, Zeus brings suffering on us all. You know, you might be down on your luck someday, just like I'm down on my luck. I was once like you. And Antinuis is like, shut up and leave. [laughter] Maticus knows what he's doing. He's kind of needling him. And um and so eventually uh Intenuous picks up like a foottool and he chucks it at Adysius. And Adysius has just been proddding him. He's been like riing him up, you know, very politely and very calmly. And Antinuis just hurls a bench at him. Gets he gets the kid to lose his cool. And the bench just like like hits Adysius and like nothing happens, you know? He's like, "Do you feel better now?" [laughter] So, I think he was he was sort of testing to see whether these were serious men. Confirmed his hypothesis that these are not serious men. They don't know how to act. A hard killer, like a cold-blooded warrior, would not throw a bench at a beggar. I mean, it's just it's ungentlemanly. It's unmanly. I mean, if you want to if you want to get rid of this guy in your Adysius or Agamemnon or Achilles, you're going to like pick him up and throw him outside yourself. You're not going to hurl a bench at him, >> right? Uh so so he he kind of prods prods and tests to to see what's going on in his household so he can come up with a plan. And one one final moment that really underlines the um the endurance that this guy has to take. [gasps] He he's he's been uh given a a blanket and a little cot by his wife who doesn't know who he is. He's had a conversation with her and he's told her this tale and um and they give him a cot and he's he's lying there stirring in his mind how he's going to pull it all off. and he sees the maids go out because there's like 50 maids and 12 of them have basically been sleeping with the suitors. They've been seduced. Um maybe it's not their fault, but I mean Homer really treats it as though it's it's their fault. And Penelope is really pissed. She says, "These are the the maidens that have been disrespecting me and disrespecting your son. They they're sleeping with the suitors. Uh and they're like not loyal to the household. They're causing me problems. They're disobedient and um you know they're they're not on our side essentially. He sees them going out. He just wants to get them right there. >> It's a violent poem. >> Mhm. >> But he says, "Endure my heart. You have endured worse before when the cyclops was eating your men." >> Mhm. >> So he has to use that same restraint that he used because if he if he had charged at the cyclops when the guy was awake, you know, he would have it would have been over. So this is a skill that he developed. >> Yeah, it's a skill that he developed and he's kind of reminding himself uh that the same kind of endurance that he had in Cyclopses is also helping him tolerate all the you know righteous indignation that he's feeling and >> souls in his house. >> Yeah. Yeah. No. Biding his time. Biding his time. He's a man of much endurance, right? >> It's a marathon. [gasps] And um and how it eventually all kind of comes comes to a head is Penelopey um has this idea. Who knows where she gets it. >> Why is Penelopey in on this? >> So she's she's um I I forgot to mention she there's a kind of crisis point that comes about at the beginning of the book. So, she's been weaving this funeral shroud for Leertes, Adysius's dad, who's not dead yet, but will be dead any day now, really. Uh, and she's been telling the suitors, "I just want to finish my funeral shroud and then I'll pick one of you. Let me let me just do my my wely duty for my old household and I'll join your household." And of course, she's been weaving it during the day and unweaving it at night. >> She's tricking them using the craft of Athena, right? But one of the maid servants, actually, one of these bad ones, told the suitors what she was doing. She was tricking them. >> So they're like, "All right, you have to decide now. We know this is all [ __ ] about your >> [ __ ] You [ __ ] >> netting and unnitting." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. They've they've had enough. And uh and so she's basically feeling like she has to has to pick now. But she comes up with this contest. All right, maybe Adysius is coming back. She's getting all these signs. You know, Adysius in disguise says, "I think your husband's coming back. I really think he's coming back, and you should just wait another day." And she's like, "I have this idea for a contest." And she tells it to him, and and he says, "You should do exactly that. That is exactly what you will do," >> which is get out Odysius's bow, right? and uh set up these axes that uh whoever whoever strings his bow, it's like a big hard recurve bow that nobody could string but him. And they could if they shoot the arrow through the ax holes, whoever does that first and marry me. And um and it, you know, it's a perfect kind of trick. It's a perfect contest because it brings out this mimemetic rivalry. Like the suitors all go in and start trying to string the bow and none of them can even get the string on the bow. It's just too big and you know they're just not strong enough. And every practically every single time they're like [sighs] I failed to string the bow of Odysius. I do not measure up to Odysius. >> [laughter] >> It kind of underlines the fact that this was what it was all about in the first place, >> trying to usurp Adysius's status, credibility, >> and his wife. >> And then, of course, you know, he's a beggar still. Oh, let let me try it out, young lads. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Beg, no. This would No. They're afraid. They say this, "What if what if what if he actually strings the bow? sort of this, you know, loser from out of town strings the bow. He's going to make us all look bad [gasps] and [clears throat and snorts] uh, you know, he manages to get his hands on the bow and of course shoots the arrow through and they're like, "Shit, well, now we're ashamed." But of course, by this time, Tmicus has hid all the weapons and the armor. Adysius has had the swine herd locked the door. He's had Urraa bolt the other doors. All the women are out. Penelopey's out safe. They're all trapped in this prison and Adysius shoots them all down, spears them. >> Hang on a second. So, he's closed all of the doors and now it's like it's killing time. >> It's killing time, >> but it's just him. He's not bringing his son in to do. >> So, his son is there with him. His son is there with him and he's got two guy two other guys. There's basically four of them on 108. Uh which you know it's it's the goat herd and this um is it a cow herd felitius one other guy but like you not not like iliatic warriors like just you know worker dudes and his two worker dudes his son and he himself and then all these suitors who are um not entirely unarmed but um I mean still 108 guys you might think they could take him But but he set it up so well. He had to he had to get them off guard. He had to have the bow, this great deadly bow that only he could use. He had to have the weapons sequestered away. And he had and he kills the leaders first. Antinois, the guy who insulted him with the bench, first to get an arrow through the throat. He's he's like lifting up a cup and this just [snorts] doesn't sus suspect what's going on. Um, >> and you know, instant death and >> and it's a blood bath. It really is a blood bath. It's if you've if you've been an 18-year-old kid just waiting for the action scene. It's very satisfying, you know, >> uh, spears through through guts and faces and such. [gasps] Uh, yeah. And and basically they all die. Every single one of them, even the ones that are arguably less guilty than the others, there's a kind of communal guilt. Yep. [gasps] >> Some people think that he he took it too far. Homer doesn't think that he took it too far. He the justice of Zeus was coming down upon them. That's how everybody talks about it in the story. Uh one guy sneaks up to Adysius and grabs him by the by the knees. Leotes the the prophet begs for his life. Adysius, gosh, I was always trying to tell them to to lay off. You know, I never touched your maidens. Uh I was always the voice of reason. And Adysius says, well, you're a you're a prophet. I'm pretty sure that if you were here for 4 years, you prophesied many things to them about me being dead. And maybe you prophesied to your own heart that you would walk away with my wife. so die. Then he, you know, drives a sword through him. It's just like it's terrifying. He's become And there's there's a similar scene of failed mercy in the Iliad 2 where Achilles kills a young kid. That's it's really ugly. >> It's really disturbing. Um, but that's sometimes what it takes, I guess, to reestablish the patriarchy. But one final note on the bow. In the Iliad, the bow is a shameful weapon. It's not honorable to kill somebody with a bow when you could kill them with a spear. It's you don't face them, you know, headon. You don't It's not man-to-man challenging them. The bow is a kind of tricky weapon. Paris uses the bow. He's this unmanly Playboy Trojan. Panderas shoots Menaaus. It's a kind of it's kind of sucker punch move >> and uh you know Adysius does his dirty work with the bow and I think that's kind of like it's a bit you know well it's a weapon of trickery doesn't obey the rules of honor but if you want to win at all costs if you want to reestablish justice maybe you need to be willing to use those weapons of trickery to kind of >> bracket the whole honorable warrior thing and do what needs to be done and and um that's at least one interpretation of how it all ends. Yeah. >> And that's how the story ends. >> Well, actually the story ends with all the suitors dead and um and then immediately uh you know Adysius so they they actually end up hanging the 12 maidens who were sleeping with the suitors. Uh, a couple of other people get punished, but um, and they, you know, they they clean the place up, heap up the bodies, and Adysius tells them, "All right, a lot of these guys' dads are near nearby in the town. Some of them are off, you know, across the seas. We have to throw a party right now and make it sound like we're having a really good time so they don't suspect anything." So they they they start cooking up meats and they start playing music and it's really bizarre just but they're they're basically trying to buy time >> before um you people find out that there's been a a slaughter of you know some of the most prominent young men on the island. Uh, and my probably my favorite scene at at the end is you actually get a a snapshot of them suitors gibbering wraiths going down into Hades >> and uh [laughter and gasps] wailing and Agamemnon and Achilles, the ghosts of Agamemnon Achilles just talking there shooting the breeze and um and the suitors come down and they're like oh Adysius slaughtered us and Agamemnon says that's my boy. [laughter] [gasps] And uh you know um they had it coming of course and the suitors complain and but um really interesting like kind of final moment there. Agamemnon says, "Amazing work, Penelopey. Penelopey the wife that I didn't have that uh stayed faithful this whole time." And he says there's a kind of ambiguity in the Greek. He says, "The glory of this person will last and be on the lips uh because of Penelopey's virtue for the rest of time. Who is this person? Most most translators, I'm paraphrasing, but the most translators say the glory of Penelope will always redounded and she will be an honor to women. But one interpretation is that the glory of Adysius will last forever because of Penelopey's virtue which will be sung among women. And why is that interesting or important? [clears throat] I think I think the message would be Homer sees Penelopey's faithfulness and her trickiness. I mean, this bow scheme was was really smart on her part, even though she didn't really know. She had this like intuition maybe. Penelopey was crucial to the story of the greatest hero that ever lived. He could not have become Odysius, the great the best of the Akans, without Penelopey's help. And it was it was a it's not like Penelopey gets glory and Adysius get glory. They both get glory because they were a unit together. >> [sighs] >> And that's that's kind of the Greek archetype of the matriarch of like what a good what what is like happiness for a woman? It's it's to uphold the glory of a h of a great household >> in in short. But um yeah, you know, the ending is is very weird. Uh the actual ending is like the town's people form up a posi and Adysius forms up a posi and they kind of [gasps] they start a battle you know a revenge battle and then Athena kind of descends from from heaven says stop and it's a deis xmachina it's like the first dexmachina you know the god coming from from on high and kind of solving this unsolvable problem uh in the plot um but you know the god makes peace and Then a couple of people die. Odicius kills a couple of guys, but then the battle stops and uh they all go home and like shake hands >> and peace is reestablished somehow. >> So he's got the favor of the gods. Like it it seems like he's had mostly favor of the gods throughout apart from Poseidon. >> Yeah, he's got the favor of the Olympian gods of order of Zeus and and Athena. He eventually wins over Poseidon like after the time frame of the story like Teresus tells him how he's gonna um like make amends with Poseidon. >> He doesn't have the favor. There's a lot of divine forces. He has to struggle with Sirens and Skila and Caribbdus and the sun god kind of spares him Helios. But but he he has the favor of the gods because he is pious and this is pointed out at the very beginning of the poem. He was always very meticulous doing sacrifices. He was always he okay he's a tricky liar but only to his enemies you know he doesn't defraud a friend. Uh he's a he's a just man and uh you know that's part of the lesson of the poem like the good do win. This is not clear in the Iliad but there is a kind of there's two divine two versions of divine justice you might say. One of them is eye for an eye Hatfield and McCoy. You kill my guy I kill your guy. And then then my son's going to kill your son and your son's and it just never stops. >> That's the kind of univilized brute like furies justice. But Zeus and Athena represent this kind of uh the kind of justice that puts quarrels to an end that actually makes a settlement that people can live in peace again. Um, and so that's the kind of justice that that that the Odyssey cares about that that that that Zeus himself, Homer has Zeus himself say that, you know, the world actually is a fair place if you play by the rules. Look, mortals think that we bring suffering upon them, but it's generally they who bring suffering upon themselves. Like >> the just this is a case in point. The guy arrestes murdered his uncle. He had it coming. You know, we told him, we told him not to murder his own cousin and seduce his cousin's wife, >> but he did it anyway. And so, what do you know? He got what was coming. >> So, revenge, another big thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Very much revenge. Revenge is is >> absolutely a part of justice, but you but it like can't go on forever. I maybe that's what the end of the poem is is kind of about like, [sighs] >> you know, there's a danger there at the end that it's going to keep spiraling and spiraling and spiraling uh never end. But I don't know, the gods intervene to make sure that doesn't happen. >> Mhm. >> And it's somehow it's important to get to that point somehow as a as a civilization after something bad has happened. Now that we know what the story is, are there any other elements of the writing process or Homer Homer's role, how it was written, the the history of this thing coming to light that are interesting? >> Yeah, I I think that this this oral poetry thing is really interesting. So, so Nolan uh is apparently casted this rapper Travis Scott, I think. I think he's from Houston. I should know him better. But anyway, as home as a bar, as demonic, I think maybe maybe as femas because hey, Homer is oral poetry. Rap is oral poetry. >> Um so maybe there's something to that. But, you know, I think that one of the differences between what we think of as like slam poetry oral poetry or rap is that a kind of pillar of the moral universe and the way that Homer is a pillar of the moral universe and the way these bars kind of >> pious. >> When I think rap, I don't usually think pious. Would would you would you have left uh if you were going off for the Trojan War, you know, would you have left your wife >> my wife with Chance the Rapper? >> Yes. >> Or even >> P. Diddy >> or even Bob Dylan for that matter. I mean, Alan Ginsburg, I don't Lord Byron. Would you have left your wife with Lord Byron? >> You know, I mean, it's it's a different mindset, >> but there, you know, there's there's some parallels. the the really interesting thing about about oral poetry and the oral like mental model of the universe or the kind of mental universe of cultures that don't have writing. You know, if you um if you go to an oral culture and you you tell somebody, "Here's what I want done, like, you know, detailed list of instructions." They'll be like, "All right." And they'll go and do exactly what you told them to do. And then when they come back, they'll say, "Here's what you told me to do." They'll say verbatim what you told them to do. Because the brain has just been so trained to to store oral information. >> [gasps] >> when um when the pilgrims came to uh Massachusetts in the you know 1600s they they were shocked at the Native Americans ability to just repeat verbatim like you know these these uh Indian tribes whatever they they didn't speak English like you could say a sentence to them they would repeat the ex exact sentence back to you like perfectly >> verbatim without understanding a word it was just that Part of what you get when you don't have writing is you have to really have this highfidelity >> oral brain. >> And when when when oral poetry encounters a written paradigm when when writing starts to be the way you store knowledge, you uh you sort of lose that ability. It's like Google Maps, you know, now I I don't know my way around my own town. some something is gets like offloaded cognitively and that's I think one of the reasons why Homer is this is this glimpse of the way that people think in this world that is lost to us we can't really go back once you have writing it's too too advantageous to to ignore you know your enemies are going to beat you if you try to >> not have a written culture it's so powerful you need you know you need writing to have science and philosophy and all kinds of stuff recordkeeping. Um >> but something is also lost. >> Yeah. Yeah. Something is profoundly lost. this tradition of uh storytelling and um and also like the role of the storytellers shifts like it I don't know the storyteller doesn't isn't like the the pillar of society that he is in Homer >> and I think you have to understand that to understand like why Homer has so much probar propaganda >> to the Iliad for example >> um but I I do think it's still these things still matter the stories that we tell still really matter a lot for people's you [snorts] know, ability to face their own problems and happiness and confidence in life. >> Uh, but it's not so visceral for us. >> How are you feeling in advance of the movie coming out? [gasps] >> I I'm going to see it as soon as I can. I mean, you know, it looks pretty awesome. Uh, people have complained about some casting choices. Let's say uh, you know, Helen of Troy seems to be an Ethiopian if by the Greek stands. Yes, which which are great at parting. So maybe there's maybe there's a logic to it. Um but I you know people complain about the Lonians. So I didn't mention I don't think I mentioned the Lstragonians. There's one of these monstrous people that Homer eats like after he meets the Cyclops. Uh there are these giant people. They're not like super giants, but they're giant enough. and uh they try to you know see if they can get a gift from the Lystragonians or maybe make a little alliance and his men meet them and they just get eaten. So um the Lystragonians just charge out in force and slaughter the Greeks. >> They they're the ones that are depicted with this sort of futuristic steel armor, plate mail armor. >> People complained about that. Oh, it's not historically accurate. I think I think that uh it's really cool. Even even if I don't like the way that Nolan tells the story, which I don't know. I I think he's a great director. He's he's um he's filmed the whole thing on IMAX. It's the first time it's ever been done. It's almost 3 hours. >> It's going to be it's going to be a good thing to watch. I'm really excited about how we're talking about the Odyssey and we're debating about it. Like just having the the debate about what does this mean? I think I think it it tells you something about what's going on in culture that people care about this a lot that that that that Nolan would get so much criticism and so much attention on from either direction. I think it shows that we sort of need this story somehow. Um so you going to see it? I will absolutely go and see it. Uh I also have an admission to make which is for the first time in history I've decided to put my uh like personal burnout health ahead of the podcast. Uh we had the offer to do half an hour with half the cast and half an hour with the other half of the cast all on a single round table in New York in 10 days time. But I'd already booked to go and take like the one digital detox week that I've ever done. So, I'd already booked this meditation retreat and I'd been working up to it and it's something I really needed and I' promised myself in January that I was going to take this time off and mana mñana manana for like, you know, 150 days or whatever, like 25 weeks until I get to this I've got this thing booked. And then I was like, yeah, sure. Like, of course, I love Nolan. I love I love the Odyssey. It's going to be exciting. Matt Damon's a legend. Yeah, it's you know, when when it happens, a lot of the media week is precisely >> at the back end of when you're supposed to be doing this thing. And I tossed and turned last week about it and uh just the coin fell on the side of I've made way too many sacrifices for like 8 years of doing the show 1,100 episodes and I was like I I think it's going to be kind of a I really hope that I don't [ __ ] regret it. Um but it feels like a symbolic decision uh to do something that helps my peace of mind and my longevity as opposed to like fire up the [ __ ] engines again. Let's do it. let's spin up this huge production in New York as opposed to this one thing that was supposed to be for me. So anyway, all that being said, I'm going to have I'll be conflicted watching it cuz I'll be thinking, [ __ ] like that the one of the big moments of the movies promo could have been or two of the big moments, right, with Tom Holland Zai um would have been on the show, but I'm pretty excited for it. It looks pretty cool. I'm not so excited for what might end up being another culture war. Flashoint, you know, Nolan, >> the stories that he puts out are >> controversial because of what happens inside of the movie. >> Is in Inception at the end of Inception, is he in a dream or is he in reality? Tenant, is the guy secretly the father of the main dude or is he actually not related orah? Um, that's cool. Casting choices. Is this some sort of cultural commentary? That's less cool. So, I'm kind of not I hope that that doesn't happen because I a massive fan of everything that Nolan's done. I wouldn't want it to be tarnished by that. But, yeah, I'd be I'll be excited by that, I guess. Do you know if he's used the Emily Wilson translation as the source material? >> He's he's talked about that. Yeah. Uh how do you feel about that? >> Uh well, he's he's commented on uh you know, her calling Adysius a complicated man. Um I think um yeah this is like the first line of the poem. Tell me muse of a complicated man is how she translates this. Poly tropos mini turned. And uh to me that sounds like he's a man of many issues. You know uh I think that this is a guy that divine nymphs fall in love with. You know he's like the most badass of all the Greeks that got back from Troy. Not the kind of guy that you would call complicated. Probably complicated just seems a little bit like >> how would you translate it? Well, it's many turns to you in that >> well that's a kind of almost you know uh somebody might say well that's a failure to translate. It's just it's you know you have to interpret it to translate it. >> Poly tropos. Tropos is this really multivalent word. It means turn. Like he could be turning around in various places sort of spinning about the the seas. A turn is like a a trick. There's many many tricks. [clears throat] Or um at least in later Greek, it's a character. It's like a kind of uh tropo is like your your character. He could be a man of many sort of guises, many many sort of personas that he can inhabit. Uh, so I think that the word is about alluding to his to his master of craft and trickery, not to his moral ambiguity. I think I think this is this would be my main I wonder how how Nolan's going to deal with this because um and he said something about Homer says uh um lying addition lying Adysius said to her, "I will tell you the truth, my lady." you know, >> just there is he is a liar >> strategically. >> Mhm. >> But I don't think that I my sense is that Wilson suspects Homer is is is feels ambiguously about Odysius. Like is he really a hero worth emulating? >> What do you think Homer feels about Odysius? >> 100% worth emulating, but that doesn't mean he's perfect. Like you can be the greatest hero and somebody to admire, >> but you can also make mistakes, >> right? But is, you know, like giving your name to the Cyclops, uh, falling asleep when your comrades try to um, you know, are are are at risk of opening up the bag of the winds or eating the cattle of the sun or or even, you know, being a little too curious like curiosity is a vice in in some Greek philosophy, like wanting to know too much without necessarily having an end in mind. And this is this curiosity is brought up by the sirens example. um where he he wants to know and uh what the sirens say. Um plugs up his companion's ear with the wax and doesn't plug up his but gets himself tied to the mast. Um maybe that was playing with the line. He ended up fine from it. But I don't think that I don't think that Homer questions Adysius's values, which is civilization over barbarism, you know, order over chaos, patriarchy over anarchy. >> That doesn't seem complicated. That part doesn't seem complicated to me. How long has it been since we've had a movie that was a relatively simplistic hero? I mean, the closest thing has been [ __ ] Top Gun 2. And like even in that Tom Cruz is trying to do this retcon make your the son of my ex flight partner feel okay about me. There's this like supplanted patriarch thing that's going on where the parental figure comes back into his life and it's the redemption of the son through the success of the new father which is the old father's new like that I guess. Um, I I remember looking at this uh video essay that explained how the world of the hero is just unsatisfactory anymore. for some reason has removed from movies that it's no longer enough for protagonist who wants to make the world a better place to work real hard, overcome challenges, be flawed, but but get through. Now, it has to be somebody who has a dark streak and needs a kind of redemption that's not quite there. And then you get to come full circle all the way back around to something that's more like Suicide Squad, which is the bad guys are actually the good guys, but the only way that they can be the good guys is if they are their bad guys self and their badness is >> the virtue in their badness is closer to congruence than it is to actual virtue. It's like they just know who they are and they are who they are and they're deployed and all of the uh motivations for why they do these things. They're pulled around and then Loki is Loki in Avengers. Is he really part of the hero? He flip-flops back and forth so much. You don't really land in a satisfying place with him. He's more a question mark even though he ends up being unbelievably powerful. And [ __ ] Captain Marvel, who's the most powerful person in the universe, appears to be [ __ ] off just like doing [ __ ] all the time. like why why are you not anyway um I get the sense that that like complicated hero thing is kind of more so obviously it's in some ways is richer right because there's conflict and there's tension um but I would I think it would be cool to just see what an uncomplicated virtuous hero that's flawed and overcomes his flaws what that would look like just follow me the [ __ ] hero's journey, please. Like, just follow me some Campbell [ __ ] from 12 to 12 and let's see. Let's see how that feels in 2026. Um, I don't want that to have to be an asterisk after after every hero of good, but let's not forget let's not forget when he, you know, let's and I I I've got it in my head that um part of the reason what I'm doing with the show at the moment, spending time doing more stories, which you're just the [ __ ] best at. It's your storytelling ability is like out of this world. Learn from the best. Um, also doing episodes where it's just me and the boys hanging, just chilling out, talking about what we've got going on. Uh, more um, uh, storytelling from uh, other areas of life too, like war stories and things like that from from special forces guys. Big part of that is I think people have got a degree of exhaustion with overthinking. Yeah. Um, I think there's a big anti anti-optimization trend at the moment that we're we're feeling. And it's not necessarily people being against optimization. I think it's people being against the fatigue of trying to be perfect. And that is >> at least in part fed into by the fact that they're overwhelmed with information and they feel like there is more input than they have time to be able to metabolize it. This line that I came up with last year that most people consume information the same way that they consume calories, too high of a dosage to be able to metabolize. And that was great 500 years ago when there was like three books that you could read. Uh and almost everybody in the village couldn't read. Uh and maybe there wasn't a printing press. I don't know. That was like 1400s I think something like that. Um not so good now when there's an abundance. We've gone from scarcity problem to an abundance problem. Same thing. Calorie sparse to calorie dense. Information sparse to information dense. People are sort of like, "Oh [sighs] [ __ ] like I'm just a little overwhelmed with all of this. I don't want everything to feel like homework. I don't want everything to feel like there needs to be a decision that's made to it. You know, we're going through a bunch of big business decisions on the show and like some of the guys that I'm dealing with, I'm seeing in them, even these very, very impressive business people who were at the forefront of what they do. There is a sense when I'm speaking to them of, dude, just [ __ ] tell me what I want. >> Mhm. >> Like, can you not can you just [ __ ] tell me what I want, please? can you just give me a thing that you are high conviction in and just deliver that? I'm like >> I get it. I get it that there is a a a fatigue and exhaustion that a lot of people have and I wonder very long-winded way of saying I wonder whether or not movies are going to start to mirror that with simplicity in the heroes. >> Again, complexity in the story, simplicity in the hero. Um, you know, we had Adolescence, that thing on Netflix that was about um young boys in the UK. And >> one of the reasons kind of, you know, pretty majestically that the the series made such an impact was that it did not really tell you what to think. >> There was a lot of question at the end. >> What how much was the young boy actually impacted by what he'd seen on the internet? How much was he a disciple of the manosphere and like an incel? Uh how much was he to blame versus the lack of supervision that had come from his parents? How much did the parents blame themselves? Was this a righteous comment on overreaches of the internet or just male loneliness? Like both sides kind of raw shark tested to see it as the their own propaganda to some degree. Um is this kid a psychopath? Did he at what point does a a boy become a man and then therefore become culpable for his own actions? And what that resulted in was just this [ __ ] furore of people debating what this means. How important what should we take away from this? Like just tell me like how many times do people want to find out um ask Nolan well is uh can't remember the the guy that Leonardo DiCap is Leonardo DiCaprio's characters in the dream world or is he alive? It's like >> in some ways that's not even Nolan's decision to make. Mhm. >> After you get to that stage of a story, it's almost on you, but because of the lack of conclusion, it sucks in speculation and that's what drives a lot of the conversation about this stuff. Um, I just generally get the sense and is sort of making a bet at the moment that not like telling people what to think, but just a little bit more simplicity. I think the opportunity to uh sort of sit back in your own mind and just observe things as they go and not feel like this is another [ __ ] decision I need to make or there's more like work that I've got to do. I'm kind of exhausted by all of this stuff. My future is AI going to take my job in 10 years time. I don't know what about the Middle East apparently. I should be worried about that. Is like some problems with gas prices I hear or inflation or like Taiwan do something with computer chips and I don't really know what I'm supposed to do. All of that together is making people [ __ ] exhausted. >> Mhm. And if you're not careful, people are going to find escapes that are way more destructive than just being able to relinquish, listen to an awesome historian tell a story for a couple of hours, the oldest story that's ever been written. And oh, okay, that [sighs] I've had a bit of a reprieve. Isn't that nice? And um I I you can't iterate movies as quickly. I can iterate this podcast three times a week and I have done for, you know, a very long time. Um, and I can lick my finger and sort of tell where the cultural winds are going and also what what most of this is just me doing it for me. Like I don't want to leave and feel like I've got this big laundry list of things to do. I'm just left with like interesting philosophical questions and insights about the virtue of loyalty and justice and revenge and when you're supposed to apply aggression and when you're supposed to sit back and when you're supposed to be diplomatic and when you can be crafty and whether lying is justified in that. All of that stuff's just nice. I don't feel burdened by it. I don't feel burdened by learning about the story of the Odyssey. In the same way as I feel burdened if it's some very prescriptive new life direction that I need to take and here is a huge big list of all of these things, but actually there's not that much conclusion because maybe veganism might not be the dude just [ __ ] like either make it simple and direct or just give me a little bit of chance to breathe. And I think at the moment at least I'm feeling in me that's a motivation that I'm enjoying. That's the sense that the tether that I'm being pulled forward through. And um yeah maybe we'll see that crossover into into other other mediums as well. This is uh a good time for Homer to come back for that reason. And I think well because I think that this is um yeah there is a simp there's a kind of moral simplicity in a lot of ways to Homer but he he tells the story from multiple perspectives partly because he's just like Nolan you know he's got a a wide audience Homer is you know these epic poets travel from city to city they're going from Eololis to Sparta to wherever I have different people of different classes and different tastes everywhere. And this, you know, they got to get a story about Adysius to work for a lot of different people. Some people are going to want to take the side of uh of of of Adysius, or some people are going to see themselves in the suitors, or maybe that's not a great example, but you know, some people are going to say, "Hey, this is a lying bastard." And other people are going to say, "No, he did what he had to do." And and that's kind of that's on you. Like to draw out the message is is not so much the poet's job. I mean, he can have his own opinion, but really his job is to is to help you get charmed, get disengaged, like Adysius does for the Fiats, like the barns do in the story. And I think also if I could kind of allegorize a little bit the sirens in particular that we didn't go into too much. >> I think they're [clears throat] really it's a timely image because you know for me I I I kind of autobiographize Adysius going to the sirens. All right. The sirens are these divine they're kind of like bad bards. They're these women who sing whatever they sing [clears throat] and they they make you just want to go and listen to them. And piled up in front of the sirens island is just rotting bones of people who who started listening and they could just never leave and they starved and died. And I think the reason that Adysius wants to hear is because he's this man of great curiosity. And and when they actually speak to him, Hunger, no, Adysius tells him, the Fishians, he tells what the sirens told him. And the sirens say, "We can tell you the story of everything that happened at Troy. all the things that you didn't know, and I'm paraphrasing, like all the things you didn't know about the backstory, what was going on at Troy, all of the different, you know, perspectives of the generals that you were trying to guess at, but you just couldn't know. Well, we know him. We know everything that happens on Earth. We they can give him infinite knowledge >> that whether or not they would say the same thing to his crew. That's what they're saying to him. And this is the thing that a man of those kind of proclivities wants most in life. Or at least [clears throat] he knows the power of that insider knowledge, that special insight into the universe, the the moly. He's seen how powerful it is to know the secrets of a little plant, the kind of power can give you. What if I could find out something interesting that I could apply to my morning routine from the sirens? >> And it, you know, for me, I think it's also the temptation of being an academic. because one of the reasons I left academia because well it was one of the reason I was in it because I had this I tell me more tell me more tell me more I want to read more I want to find out the the the end of that story or oh jeez five more books I need to read and and that can if you if you follow that too far you end up potentially a a rotting pile of bones at the feet of the sirens and never getting home and never doing what you need to do. It's this kind of temptation of of knowledge. And you know, maybe there's a person or two in your audience that can relate to the temptation of the university, but we can all relate to the the doom scroll. Like, and it's often it's not just like it's not stupid humor all the time. A lot of it is you're you're you tell yourself I'm going to get some insight on, you know, what what the Bitcoin price is going to do from this Iran thing and oh well, how can I ignore that blah blah blah? And it's it's it's all it all seems actionable. It's it's it's constructed feels important. >> It feels important. It's designed to feel important because it's risen up in the algorithm. And I think this is really >> speaks to a profound uh inclination that people have, a temptation that people face that leads in not just to inaction is you know, but but to unreflection too. Well, certainly if you're permanently on absorb, you have very little time to do reflect. You know, if the fire hose of new information is bukkiing you in the face, you don't have that much time to think about what you've already ingested, said Bonnie. And when >> at wise sage, >> yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The the philosopher be blue. um that [snorts] that sense of I'm drowning in information. I don't know what to do about it. This was a line that I had a Bill Thompson, this this old uh informations expert from worked at three-letter agencies, US uh like army. He was basically the special forces Q from James Bond. And um he would help them to get to where they needed to. He would take phones apart, do all this sort of stuff. And I was asking him, my current working theory is not that most of the propaganda and most of even the information online is trying to make people convinced of any one narrative. It's to drown them in so much information that they become uh apathetic and they just sort of give up entirely. Now that might be that at some point in future their apathy can be uh formed into something useful and sort of thrust forward in like some vector. Um but for the most part I think when you when you fire host people with information after long enough they just go I dude I'm [ __ ] I have no idea. If you try and go down any rabbit hole any conspiracy rabbit hole for every one that you find out there is an equal and opposite the physics of the conspiracy system. For every conspiracy, there is an equal and opposer and then there's an equal and opposite one. The iceberg never stops. It just comes out the other side of the planet. And that's the tip of the other side of the iceberg. So yeah, this this endless oraorus of just looking at >> uncertainty and information and and and uh yeah, I think I'm certainly feeling I'm feeling deto. feeling somewhat salved after after getting in touch with something that's got a bit more >> like firm foundations. So, and this is what you got to think is so appealing to a uh a person like Alcinus maybe or a person like Adysius or like a guy like Julius Caesar about a great story like that because they've just got information coming in them and decisions to make and all the time and a long narrative is a way of is a way of slowing down your brain and reflecting. It's it's but it's not just entertainment. It's it has it has something useful in there that narrative structure. You're we're like programs to in, you know, ingest and and process information in that way much more um effectively in long form when it's when it's put into a story. Yeah. because we can remember it and we can actually store that framework of here's what happened with Adysius and then we can draw lessons out of it years and years later that that we need because we have that that archetypal uh narrative within us. And I think this is one of the reasons why an oral culture like the Greeks spent so much time on these kinds of stories that um about heroes about somebody to emulate and mind you they're not they're not simplistic. I mean like the Odyssey doesn't, you know, he makes a lot of mistakes. Yeah, you can debate about his actions. The Greeks would debate about his actions. I mean, a lot of the later Greeks thought he was a a bad guy. He was he was a liar. He's a cheater. A lot of the later Greeks thought he was the greatest hero. I mean, there's it admits of debate. And if you brought back real hero stories that didn't always have them having a a meth addict addiction on the side or, >> you know, banging their secretary in secret, >> you could still have complexity. You don't have to undermine everybody with a kind of secret mob story or a very open mob story. I think we need more of that to get through what we're what we're facing. A lot of us at least. >> Heck yeah. Alex Petus, ladies and gentlemen, dude, you're the best. Where should people go to check out all the amazing things you do? >> Cost of Glory podcast available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, Cost of Glory on X, Cost of Glory.com. Cost of Glory. Cost of Glory. Cost of Glory. [laughter] Pretty easy to find if you look for me. >> Dude, until next time. Let's come up with something else to talk about. >> Do it. >> All right. Goodbye, my beauties. See you next time, >> dude. Yes. >> [ __ ] the man. So good. So good. >> Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, YouTube knows who you are deeply. It thinks you're going to like this one [music] even more. Come on, press