The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire | Lex Fridman Podcast #498

We're talking about a society that was right in the middle of one of the main corridors of empire building and new religions in the world. This is the most dangerous neighborhood that you can possibly live in. >> 26 emperors were murdered in a period of 50 years. >> Yes, it's tremendous instability. >> Almost all were of these emperors were generals and almost all were murdered by their men. So, civil war was the norm, hyperinflation, economic crash, plus there's a plague. >> Yes. >> It's just a lot of chaos. >> Here's why I don't think the Eastern Roman Empire is a military dictatorship, even though again, the emperors control the armies um and the armies themselves will often have a say in um who becomes emperor, like through the civil wars that we mentioned. The reason why I don't think it's a military dictatorship is because they almost never, very, very, very rarely use the army as an instrument of social control. Sometimes these eunuchs were extremely competent. Um like Narses, Justinian's general, who defeated the Goths in Italy in this massive battle. Like this guy was a total hard-ass. And he just did a little man, he was very he was very old and he was tiny and he was a eunuch and the Goths laughed at him, but he had the last laugh. >> The following is a conversation with Anthony Kaldellis, a historian of the Eastern Roman Empire, also known as the Byzantine Empire. This is the Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here's Anthony Kaldellis. You've described that the Byzantine Empire is the Roman Empire. That calling it the Byzantine Empire is an invention of historians writing long after the empire has collapsed. That the people of that time considered themselves Romans and that the so-called Byzantine Empire never actually existed. That it was in every legal and cultural sense the Roman Empire continuing unbroken. So, let's get our terms right in the grand historical context. What is the Byzantine Empire and why should we just call it the Roman Empire? >> So, like the burden of proof is on those who would assert that what we've been calling the Byzantine Empire is something other than the Roman Empire because all of our sources are very clear about this. And we've known about this. We've always known about it. It's almost a form of cognitive dissonance, right? It's like when you know something is the case, but you carry on as if it's not. So, the Eastern Roman Empire, this is the direct continuation of the ancient Roman Empire in the East, right? Everybody knows the Western Empire fell in the 5th century. And for many conceptions of Western history, that was sufficient. Like that's when we just called it the Roman Empire fell in the 5th century. And we kind of yeah, we kind of know that the Eastern half survived, but we don't want to include that in our cultural genealogy. And so we kind of pretend that it became something else. But in fact, it called itself the Roman Empire. Its subjects were Roman citizens. They called themselves Romans all the way down through to the end and beyond. So, there a number of reasons why Western Europeans wanted to think that the Eastern Empire is something different. And those reasons have created these models where they were they called it Empire of the Greeks for a thousand years and they switched to Byzantine Empire for very political reasons. Now that's collapsing. So, we're now moving into a phase where we have the long Roman Empire. We We recognize that the history of the Roman state, the Roman polity is something that lasts an extraordinarily long time. Very unique almost in history from antiquity like the archaic period down to the 15th century. >> I think it would be really nice to actually look just for brief moment at the grand scale of the the full Roman state as it lasted for over 2200 years. So it's founding 753 BC to let's say the fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD. So can we try to give a big picture overview of everything that happened? >> Okay, so first we have a period of the kings. This is almost legendary from like the 8th century BC down to around 510 BC. So this is when Rome is ruled by a series of local kings. The kings are expelled and the republic or what we call the republic is instituted and this is a regime that's governed by mostly an aristocracy but with cooperation from the people of Rome in various ways. The the arrangements change over the centuries. So that lasts for about five centuries. And then we have the end of the republic and the era of Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar when the civil wars lead to the creation of an imperial monarchy, right? Under Augustus. So that's we date that roughly either yeah 27 BC something like that. And thereafter it is an imperial monarchy for the next millennium and a half. Very broadly we can divide it into two phases. One where the center of power is in Rome and one where it's in Constantinople. >> [clears throat] >> And you know, we can debate the dates of when that transition takes place. These big transitions usually take place over long periods of time. They're not like very sudden. So that's the big picture. Kings, republic, imperial monarchy. >> The Roman kingdom, the Roman republic, the The empire. >> Yes. >> And then the West and East Roman Empire. >> Yes. >> Uh and then maybe what are the different terms that we could be using for the Byzantine Empire including Byzantium? Is it also fair to say the late Roman Empire? >> So late Roman Empire we use for both East and West mm starting around the reign of Diocletian maybe even a bit earlier so during the 3rd century AD and that goes down to maybe the early 7th century. So that period we call late Roman Empire and if you ask me to define its principal characteristics it would probably be the tax system and the administration the bureaucracy of the later Roman Empire is that that comes from mostly Diocletian and Constantine's reforms. >> And Diocletian was in the 3rd century. >> Yes 284 to 305 AD. Yes he was a very important reformer. >> And we'll talk about it but let's just do this whirlwind and hopefully there'll be automagical images somewhere over overlaid but >> Okay. >> So >> [laughter] >> in 753 BC Rome a small city-state is founded then in 509 BC the kings are overthrown and the Roman Republic is born. 390 BC the Gauls sack Rome and uh this I believe among other events throughout its history is a formative trauma that hardens Rome's security obsession. It turns out throughout its history people want to attack from different directions and so you have to defend. So there's two wars as we're actually saying off mic there's two kinds of uh military operations one is uh wars of conquest and expansion and and one is more defensive and we'll we'll talk about how the military changes throughout its history uh to allocate more effort to one versus the other. In uh 264 to 146 BC, the Punic Wars and the survival against Hannibal transformed Rome into a Mediterranean superpower. Then, uh like you mentioned, Caesar in 49 to 31 BC, Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon to assassination of Caesar to the Battle of Actium, and then the civil war dismantles the Republic and concentrates power in a single ruler, Octavian, aka Augustus, the first Roman emperor, let's say. >> Yeah. >> Then, uh 27 BC, Augustus founds the Principate, really low-key monarchy. And uh so, officially that ends the Republic, and then that begins uh 27 BC to 180 AD, the Pax Romana, which is a period of relative peace and stability. And a lot of the emperors we know of, the sexy popular emperors, all come from that period. >> Yeah. >> Marcus Aurelius, I'm a big fan of, from that period. Then, takes us to 284 AD, the guy we mentioned, Diocletian, who rebuilds the state. Uh emperors drop the first citizen mask, this perception of the way, and we'll talk about this the the persona that's presented by the state. 312 AD, Constantine defeats Maxentius at the Milvian Bridge to become the sole ruler of the western half of the empire, and then founds Constantinople in 330 AD. East and West are split in 395 AD, Visigoths sack Rome in 410 AD. The West falls at 476 AD um as the last western emperor is deposed. And then we sort of focus more on the East Roman Empire with uh 527 in the 6th century, Justinian's reign. In the 7th century, Heraclius defeats Persia and then loses against the Arabs. Uh there's the Arab conquest uh continuing in the 7th century in the 8th Arab siege of Constantinople fails. There's the the Macedonia dynasty and that you have a excellent book about. And then the Crusades and then eventually leading to Constantinople falling in 1453 AD. As a person who understands the full journey of it with a focus on East Roman history, is there obvious glaring holes or incorrect things in what I just said? >> No, nothing incorrect. I would say if if you wanted to produce a sort of very swift timeline of its history. It's obviously important to focus on the moments when lots of territory was lost to foreign invaders and these are actually three main moments. There's the Arab conquests in the 630s. This is a decade. In a decade that war was lost. It is the Seljuk Turk conquest of Asia Minor, modern Turkey, in the 1070s. And that was very swift and partly reversed afterwards but only partly. And then there's the Fourth Crusade, 1204, when the armies from mostly France sacked conquered Constantinople and dismembered the empire as much as they could. It didn't last that long. The Romans managed to regroup and recover. But those are the three main crisis points. They are very swift but they caused incredible damage. For all the rest of its history, it is a state and society that is generally sort of consolidating, regrouping, and generally engaged in slow but steady economic growth, territorial expansion, a small scale but steady. Uh, so we can talk about this. It's I think it's an important thing to to keep in mind about the big picture. That the defeats were swift and kind of, you know, terrible. Uh, but the most of its history is one of slow growth. >> There's some traumatic events that have a big impact, but a lot of the developments we'll talk about uh, it might seem or feel like there's a particular moment when those developments or changes in the way the government or the military is structured arise, but really it's a gradual process. It's That's the tension we have to be constantly dancing with. >> Yeah, so as historians, this is a point of method and it's very important. Uh, there are moments when like individuals with a great deal of power make choices that impact everybody else and have, you know, long-term consequences downstream. Constantine's conversion to Christianity, for example, right? Not something that anybody could have or did predict. Okay. Otherwise, most of the developments that we identify by specific dates, like you mentioned 395, the division of the Eastern and the Western Empires, those are conventional dates that we use to actually capture what is in fact a much longer process. There was no split between the two halves. It was one among many allocations of jurisdiction to like one son and another son in the East and the West. The two halves were subsequently reunited, then they kind of divided again among different emperors. It's just a process. And so we sometimes use fixed dates for what is in fact a process. Or 476, the fall of the Western Empire, that's just the last date. It's actually a very long process that took decades. And so, that's just something to keep in mind that sometimes we're talking about processes, sometimes we're talking about very discreet events with long-term consequences. Yeah. >> Maybe an impossible question for a Roman state that lasted over 2,200 years, but is there a kind of through-line, a thread, a soul that runs through the entire history of the Roman Empire? As you said, it's slow transformation and evolution. But if we dare call the whole thing Roman, Rome, the Roman state, >> Yes. >> is there some aspect, some characteristic that run through the whole thing? >> I think so, yes. By the way, you know the um metaphor of the the ship of Theseus? >> Mhm. >> Okay. So, in case the audience doesn't know it, this is when there's a ship and it's, you know, at sea, and over time like every component of that ship is replaced with some other component, so that by the end of the story, it has none of the original parts, but it's like in a certain sense still that ship because of the story, right? The Okay. So, Roman history is different from, let's say, Greek history or Christian history, right? Christian history is the story of a religion. It can be in any country, among any ethnic group, it's here, there, right? It's everywhere. But you still have histories of Christianity. And it's the same with like um say Greek culture >> Mhm. >> or your Greek literature, right? It's not a function of a particular state. Ancient Greeks were famously never united in a state. But it's people who culturally accept that tradition as their kind of elite prestige culture and engage with that Homer and and Plato and so forth. And they can be anywhere. Roman history's not like that. Roman history's very specifically the history of a state or a political community. And so, this is the community of the Roman people, the Roman citizens. Um and it is in gradual evolution, but at no point is there a rupture in that history such that it's members would ever think that something dramatic had changed and that they're no longer part of that story. So, in the same way as the as the ship I just mentioned, in other words, it's it's the narrative that you tell about it where the changes that take place to it make sense only when you see them within the context of that story. It's the same with Roman history. Yes, there are changes. Like, eventually everything changes, but it happens so gradually that it doesn't seem that way to anyone living in it. Um and so the the narrative of the history of the Roman people is what holds all of this together. >> How important is it that So, you mentioned Greek culture. So, a lot of my friends who are Greek are extremely proud of being Greek. There's certain cultures that are proud. >> Sure. >> And it's not a momentary ephemeral thing. It feels like a thing that has lasted for many generations. >> Oh, yeah. >> And so, that is an engine that propagates through time that carries that culture forward. And so, does a similar thing apply for the Roman Empire in a different way? Maybe because you say it's a political kind of community. That means a set of ideals. And we'll talk about because those ideals become even more concretized and explicit, I think, through the East Roman Empire because one of the things you talk about is that the the citizens of the empire are kind of all connected. That they're they are engaged in this whole sort of machinery. Anyway, that's a complicated way of asking is is there some elements that Greek pride that I speak? Is there some kind of Roman pride that propagates the thing? >> Oh, there totally is. Um that you can find authors and historical agents who definitely display this or talk about it. But, we don't want to make that the center of the story or the basis for any analysis because so what you're observing in your Greek friends is also the result of modern nation-building as it's the result of modern systems of education and sort of national identities and these are fostered and and created through all kinds of media and institutions. It's It's just a different situation altogether. Um what you find in ancient republics or medieval states is more something like a consensus to be ruled or to be to rule and to be ruled in this particular political community. Now, some members of it may definitely and in fact did have this kind of pride. I'll give you an example. So, there's an ambassador in the 6th century and he's concluding a deal with the Persians. Uh and you know, the Persians are skeptical cuz they your Romans can't always be trusted. But, this guy says to them, he says, "Um and let me just tell you, you're making a deal here with the Romans. The Romans, the name should say it all." >> Mhm. >> Like you Okay, and you get a sense that this is is expressing a certain pride in like being a bearer of the Roman tradition and speaking for the emperors and the Roman Empire. I mean, that's For him, this was something very very momentous. You find these kinds of examples. So, these people exist, but I wouldn't want to make that the basis for um like an analysis of how the society works as a whole. For the most part, it was something like a consensus where subject you know, subjects or citizens, however you want to call them, they agreed to um let's say be taxed and be ruled by political authorities because of what they get in return and there's this kind of understanding of a a mutual set of responsibilities. Um and my concern among other things is to try to explain how this society held together for so long. Um pride, yes, among some people, definitely. You You You find it in the sources. But, the sources are texts that written by literate uh you know, usually elites. Um so, this is a small part of the population and we can't automatically extend their attitudes to everybody else. So, in dealing with everyone else, we have to work with different kinds of materials, different kinds of assumptions. We can't just posit that they're just proud of being Roman. They could have been, we don't know that though. We can see other sorts of things about them. Like, for example, did they pay their taxes? Did they try to rebel and leave the empire? So, those are the kinds of things that that that I look for. >> Pride is one component, but it could be other explanations and factors that explain what motivates a soldier to defend the capital, for example. >> Yeah. >> Like, what uh what uh motivates a particular person to pay the taxes? And then, this is this is something that we'll definitely talk about, but just to linger at the big picture, if the Romans from the different periods met, how different would they be from each other? Like, if I if I brought to you this one of those, you know, there's like a blind taste test you can do with food. >> Yes. >> Uh >> Pepsi and Coke. >> Yes. >> If I brought you a Roman from the kingdom period, the republic period, the early imperial period, >> I mean, I get asked this in a in a in a much more radical form, which is like, if you take someone from like around 1453 who's a Roman and a subject of this and compare and and, you know, compare him or have him meet, you know, in your imagination with someone from the ancient republic. Like, how could they find any kind of agreement on on on what it means to be Roman and unrecognize each other as belonging to that polity? This this is a very difficult thing to Now, I can point to a number of things that they would find eventually. And, you know, if you told them, you know, you're both Romans, you're both from this long history, now you have to find, you know, what you have in common. I think they could find things. But, before we talk about those, if if you want to get into it, let's just say that the question can even be posed about Romans who live at the same time. I mean, if you take a senator from the age of Cicero and someone from the slums of Rome who's maybe the son of a slave who was brought from the East by some general a generation ago and put them in a room and say, "Now, you discuss. You're both Romans. What do you have in common?" They might have trouble in coming up with something, right? Um so, let's not minimize the sheer diversity of experiences and sort of life experiences of um Romans who are living at the same time. The important thing is that uh change is always happening and from my standpoint, um this change is is cumulative, so it results in a Greek-speaking Orthodox Christian Romans in Constantinople uh who at first sight might have little to do with Latin-speaking, you know, non-Christians or worshipping the ancient gods Romans from a Republican Rome. And those are very very different situations and no doubt they would they would look and seem foreign to each other, right? The question is why do we assume that someone like Hadrian, right, an emperor from the 2nd century, uh sort of very cosmopolitan figure who travels around the empire with his Greek lover and you know, writes poems and is has a Greek beard and you know, loves Greek culture and has much to do with someone from the Middle Republic who's yeah, some warrior who's chasing down cattle from the Samnites. I mean, and yet, the way we understand history is that oh no, those belong together, Hadrian and this ancient Roman from the 4th century BC, but not Hadrian and someone, you know, an emperor a few centuries later who's just like him bilingual in Greek and Latin, who's kind of cosmopolitan, who you know, reads the same stuff because we posit this rupture between Roman and Byzantine. >> One of the ways we can try to analyze this is for example looking at a very specific role in society across time. So we can look at soldiers. How they saw violence for example. That's one way. >> Yeah. >> making me realize that we can just take a thousand different professions and positions in society and really specifically look at what the experience of the world was like. >> Yeah. >> And so one of them is is is the view of on violence across time. And and then the other is the view on the role of the the the government. >> Yeah. >> Or across time. >> That's an excellent way of putting it. So take soldiers for example, they swear an oath. >> Mhm. >> Right. Now, we don't have the oath for every given period. We have some approximations of it, some hints of what it contained, but we know that Roman soldiers swore an oath like throughout all of the centuries of the empire. Sometimes they might add like a Christian formula to it. Sometimes before that not, but they swore basically to protect the the republic or depending on what term they used or the empire or the emperor and this is something that they would have recognized very quickly. Like if if they met each other over time and say, "Hey, what was your oath like?" and they recited it, this would have made much sense to them, right? Or take for example a woman who runs a business, right? From any century of the empire, it would have been especially the later you go the the more so that this woman is enabled to do this by virtue of Roman law. Um certain, you know, Roman law property, um and inheritance, and and marriage, but also regulations regarding who can do what and what kinds of properties women can handle and under what circumstances. This is something that Roman women had in common that many other cultures did not. Um so, I'll give you an example. So, for example, in the 10th-11th century, there are Jewish women who live in the Eastern Roman Empire who realize that they have more rights in Roman courts than in rabbinical ones. And they take their disputes to the Roman courts. Now, the thing is that for the Romans, these are property matters, not religious matters. But for the rabbis, these are religious matters. But the Roman courts trump the Jewish courts in the empire, right? And so, you end up with the situation where Jewish women have more rights than Jewish women do elsewhere because where Roman law is not operative. And there you go. Like like these things matter, right? And that's a function of imperial law. >> And this is be a interesting actually interplay between the law and religious institutions uh throughout the East uh Roman Empire. So, [snorts] you argue that even though the personality of the various emperors varied, as we'll talk about, and as they're often venerated, celebrated, criticized, talked about, the late Roman Empire was projecting a persona to its citizens that was consistent throughout its history. Can you describe what you mean by this and describe the different detailed characteristics of this persona? >> Yes. So, this persona, it's what the governments or the emperor, the court, and the spokesman, the bureaucracy want their subjects to think uh this whole thing is about. Like how is power being used, why, and for whom, right? And they do so in laws that they promulgate throughout the empire. Sometimes they have these laws read in church, for example, or posted publicly. They're definitely eager to have them communicated to as many people as possible. Uh but they're also a function of imperial rhetoric. Uh so the way you praise an emperor, the way you talk about an emperor. Uh you find this language in in petitions. So this is a hugely important glue for this society is that anyone could basically petition the authorities for let's just say just about anything. That's not technically true, but there's a lot of petitioning going on. So, you know, if you think something's wrong or you've been treated unjustly, you can petition local officials, even imperial officials. You can petition the emperor, you can, right? And the expectation is that that petition will be read, addressed, and answered. Uh it might not be answered in the way that you want, but it will be answered. And those responses contain this language also, right? So these are the different media through which the emperors are broadcasting this persona. And that persona is what? Basically, that the authorities are responsive to the needs of their subjects, that they are often accountable. In other words, they understand that they are exercising public power, and that their mandate is to exercise it solely for the benefit of their subjects. They keep saying this. Um so renouncing any kind of private interest. In other words, we're not doing this for our benefit, say the the the the authorities. We're doing this for your benefit. >> Mhm. >> Also that they're proactive. So the emperors are constantly saying that we're planning ahead. We we're trying to foresee what problems you might have, and we are solving them before you experience them. And that they are also working very hard. So, hard working in fact the one of the clichés that they keep using is sleepless. The emperors keep saying that I'm losing sleep over this. I'm not sleeping at night because I'm just worrying so much about your problems and how to solve them. Justinian for example was publicly known as the sleepless emperor. And not because he was a demon whose head floated around in the palace on its own, which some people >> Oh, that's a thing? >> Yeah, it was a thing. Yes. >> Okay. [laughter] >> That's a whole thing. >> But sleepless in terms of work so hard as no time to sleep. >> He was a workaholic. That that is conceded by even his enemies. Um all night he was up that's just hauling officials in at any old hour to talk about whatever, you know, wars and architecture and laws and to religion and theology and whatever. So, the emperors are projecting this image, right? So, that's what I call the persona. >> Mhm. >> Tireless effort to work on behalf of subjects, to do so responsibly, um to be responsive and accountable. In other words, if some of my officials breaks the law or oppresses you, I'm giving you instruments, like legal instruments, by which to hold them to account. So, that's the persona. It's very consistent. Um and I think it's part of the mechanism of tying the society together. In other words, if subjects think that their emperors are like this, right? They're more likely to um agree to the consensus of essentially paying taxes. >> And uh you draw this distinction between rhetoric and action. What the authorities say and what they actually do. So, when you say persona in the modern times, some of that could be reframed as propaganda, for example. >> Yeah. >> Uh and propaganda implies that the rhetoric that there's a big gap between the rhetoric and the action. And one of the things you said you took away from reading Machiavelli is that we should judge people not by what they say but but what they do. So, how much of the Roman Empire's government of what they espoused was merely rhetoric and how much was true in in how they acted? >> Yes. This is a key lesson I took from reading Machiavelli. And I found this a very insightful way of thinking about politics and I would recommend that anybody kind of practice this way of looking at the world, right? Um people and states and you know, powerful people can say anything they want to. At the end of the day, what matters is what they actually do. Um and this doesn't mean that what they say is irrelevant even if it's discordant with what they do. But, nevertheless, um in the case of the East Roman state, so my research suggests that the emperors and the authorities were generally sincere in what they said. In other words, I have found that they generally did what they said they were going to do. Overall, um not perfectly, obviously. And of course, these are human beings we're talking about, right? They're human societies. There's a lot of, you know, corruption and you name it. Abuse, of course. Of course, there is. But overall, I think that there was a sufficient level of understanding that the emperors are in fact doing this. And they were actually incentivized to do this. We can talk about how. Um because they were also in a pretty vulnerable situation, too. So, they needed their subjects to be relatively content on this front. >> Isn't this a surprising to you? So, you know, from the outside point of view, Roman emperors, even in the East Roman Empire, technically have a lot of power. >> Yeah. >> You can even say in some cases absolute power. And yet they seem to be awfully worried >> Yeah. >> to uh to make everybody in the empire happy. What explains that? Like, what what explains the small gap between rhetoric and action in the East Roman Empire? >> A number of things, but ultimately it is that there is no right to the throne. Um and this is a function of the Roman matrix of politics here. In other words, um So, here's a bit of a paradox. What we call the Roman Republic was the most imperialistic phase of Roman history. Like, this is when the Romans did most of their conquering. >> Mhm. >> What we call the empire uh much less imperialistic in this way. That's much more defensive in its approach, right? And yet, our terms are a little mismatched uh in that way. The empire is more a function of the um that it has an emperor rather than it is engaged in imperialism. And that emperor emerged out of the Republic, but emerged out of the Republic in a very strange way. In other words, not as um a dynasty that created the state. So, for example, if you think of the Ottoman Empire and many other empires, they the whole thing existed because this dynasty engaged in conquest and was successful in creating the state. And so, the dynasty was like at the heart of the state. That's not at all the case um in the Roman Empire. The The emperor is a figure who emerged within a republic. And in order to create peace after the civil wars, those emperors had to for a long time kind of pretend that they were not what they really were. Um in by basically, you know, continuing to flatter the idea of a republic that is, you know, that has a first citizen maybe. Oh, no, no, I'm not a king. I'm just I have this office and that office and that office. Whatever the Senate has given me. Now, we understand that's a facade, but the fact that they had to create this facade at all is very important. >> Can we actually just linger on that? I mean, how much of this, cuz you said they had to create this facade. >> Yeah. >> Did Augustus, who started the whole thing, of the first emperor of Rome, did he have to act that way? Cuz he kept acting like he's not an absolute monarch. >> And he could have gone hardcore, destroy the Senate, just full a hardcore rule, dictatorship. >> govern then? >> Uh so so he wants to be an effective governor, and he also wants to not be overthrown. >> Exactly. Because, you know, just because you ended one civil war, doesn't mean that there's not going to be another. You have to create a consensus such that people don't want to have another civil war. If he did what you said, which he in theory could have done, but that would have just led to more wars, right? So, the problem is that the emperors, even those who come to power through violence, they can't prevent other people from trying to come to power through violence, because, like I said, no one has a right to the throne. >> We should also say one more thing, where dare I carefully say this, but it seems like riots and civil wars is a feature, not a bug of the system. >> Yes. >> This is a different thing that will have to modern day. It's because the threat of a civil war of violent civil war, where you overthrow the government, and there's just a lot of >> Yeah. >> death and struggle for power is always a threat. That's another incentive, that I guess the stick, not the carrot, but the stick for the emperor to behave. >> Yes, it's the main one. In other words, just take the the thousand years that I study. Uh there's something like 120 civil wars. Now, these are usually very swift. They're over quickly. And they're never about ideology. So, they're not like modern civil wars. >> Mhm. >> Right? It's about slavery or the rights of kings or whatever. No, no, no. They're solely about who has the power. All sides have the same ideology. They talk about, you know, the responsibility of government in the same way. Right? They're just competing over who's the >> best man to do the job. >> Mhm. >> Right? And so, once you have that situation, and it might not be a civil war, could be a palace coup, it could be a a a kind of fighting in the capital, something like that. Once everyone's taken their side and and you have a winner, that's the emperor. Um and you you often overthrow the previous regime. I'll give you some statistics. Something like 46% of the emperors of Constantinople are overthrown through violence. 46%. And that's almost half. >> Mhm. >> Right? That's a huge That's a huge number, which means that every emperor is vulnerable and insecure, and they know it. Right? So, what they have to do is make sure that that doesn't happen to them. And the way to do that is not by arresting and executing everybody you think might be a threat or just generally behaving like a, you know, a Caligula or Nero. That will just get you killed. Like, they know this. So, the best way to avoid that fate um is to actually do the things that will make people happy so that they don't support a rebel if a rebel decides to appear. And sometimes rebels would appear. Um there's a kind of convention in Constantinople. Like, if you Sometimes you you think, "Hmm, that emperor is pretty unpopular, and I think I can overthrow him." What you would do is you would march down the center boulevard >> Mhm. >> uh and, you know, you'd have your people just call the populace of Constantinople out to rally to you know, maybe go to Hagia Sophia, the the church and just create a big crowd and call for the deposition of the emperor and you know, maybe that would happen. And sometimes it did and sometimes it didn't. And the rebel or would-be rebel would sort of proceed down the the Messy, the the Boulevard and people would just gradually just disappear and then he'd be left alone and go up to Hagia Sophia as as seeking asylum. >> Mhm. >> Right? Um so that's a bid. That's someone making a bid for the throne and it just goes disastrously bad. Other times the people come out cuz they hate the emperor and they drag the emperor out and cut his nose off or whatever. Um so uh emperors are constantly trying to prevent that from happening and the best way to do that is for goodwill. >> I'm trying to load in that kind of world cuz it's a different world than we live in today. >> Yes. >> There's a constant inner workings of policy development inside government. >> Yes. >> But the check on power is like literal like we will murder you. >> Yes, it depends on the period. Sometimes murder you, sometimes blind you, sometimes cut your nose off, but there were periods >> [laughter] >> Thank you for the nuance. >> No, there were periods that were more civilized. We'll just basically you get retired to a monastery. >> Right. >> Okay. Um you're right. So here's what elections do. Elections give a government a mandate for I don't know, four or five years. And during that period you may be unpopular, but you're legitimate. Right? Because of the institutions. Whereas in Constantinople we don't have those kinds of institutions. We have instead an ongoing referendum. >> Mhm. >> We just call it a perpetual referendum, right? >> Mhm. >> And in fact the emperors are are they're conducting opinion polls in a sense because they appear in public. They appear in public everyone is expected to cheer and chant acclamations, right? Like uh slogans, uh right? So, you have 100,000 people in the Hippodrome all chanting, you know, "Worthy" or "Many years for you, Augustus" or something like this. If that happens, it's great. But if you appear in the Hippodrome and people are like sullen, if the chanting is a bit tepid, or if they're booing, then you know something's wrong, right? So, you got to find out what's wrong. It could be something like uh the grain supply is is uh you know, not working or whatever. And so, emperors are desperate to fix those problems. >> And uh the Hippodrome is uh this big gathering place in Constantinople, which I guess a lot of people gathered at and did this kind of cheering or not cheering based on policy and >> Yep. >> and uh whether the emperor is popular or not. This was democracy. Uh I apologize to use that term, but in our conception of what that means, because what do we mean by democracy in the modern day is that the people somehow have a connection to who leads and how they lead. And this is the Hippodrome was that connection between the people and the leaders. >> Yes. Now, we can talk about modern democracy if you if you want. That's a that's a I have I have my own views about modern democracy. Um and and you know, how it works and how it doesn't and anyway, whether it is democracy in fact, cuz there are other models of democracy like ancient Athenian democracy, which is a whole other thing. But you're right. There's not just in the Hippodrome. It's wherever people assemble in large numbers. So, this could be military mustering grounds, right? So, the army. The army is also the Roman people in a way. And in some cases, the most decisive part of it, right? So, if an army gathers together and they decide they want a different emperor, that's serious. And that can happen out in the provinces, too. That doesn't necessarily have to happen in Constantinople. Uh there's also a Sophia. So, the people gather in the church or they gather in public spaces like the Forum of Constantine. >> Mhm. >> So, this can happen anywhere where a large number of people can gather. And it's I don't know if you want to call it a democracy as such, um, but it is definitely a form of popular, um, let's say consultation and a testing of consensus. I'll give you another example. Um, so in the 1190s, the emperor, that's Alexios III, he's being threatened by the German emperor. German emperor's basically, you pay me a bunch of money or I'll invade. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> Just straight-up extortion. >> Yeah. >> Um, and Alexios decides, okay, I'm going to I'm going to gather this money. I'm going to impose these taxes. >> Mhm. >> And he gathers the people in the Hippodrome and he says, "Uh, you know, we're going to have the German tax." He called it the German tax. Um, and there's such an uproar in the Hippodrome against this that he's like, uh, that wasn't my idea. Uh, I don't know where that came from. No, never mind. We're not going to have the German tax. So, fortunately, the German emperor died and nothing ever happened. But, it gives you a sense of how emperors like literally can backtrack when they see that the people are against something in a matter of policy, right? Like tax policy. Uh, so, yeah, there there there was this give and take. So, institutionally, the emperor might look absolute as you called him earlier, in practice, no. No, the ones that did that didn't end well. >> And we should say, going to perplexity here, the Hippodrome of Constantinople was the main stadium and social center of the Byzantine capital, used, uh, primarily for chariot racing and imperial ceremony, and today survives in Istanbul's Sultanahmet, uh, district. And the reason I looked this up, I wanted to see how many people shaped as a long U-shaped race course with a central barrier and tiered seating. It may have held from roughly 30,000 up to 100,000 spectators, though exact capacity is debated because archaeological remains are limited. >> Yes. That's a lot of people. >> 30,000 is definitely a pretty underestimate. >> Yeah. >> The Hippodrome is still there. I mean, you can see it from like satellite photos. The shape of it is still there. And actually some parts of the built the Sven Dhoni that the sling around the southern side is still there. You can walk around it. And it's right next to the palace. In other words, embers didn't have to go far. Now, sometimes there are events for replacing an emperor. So, say the emperor dies in his sleep and there's no heir. Uh this happens in 491, for example. And so, the people gather in the Hippodrome in order to have a discussion with the court about whom to appoint. Now, in those kinds of context, it's entirely possible that there people also in the the arena. Like not just in the stands. Um I think some military units might have just been arrayed there rather than in the stands. So, you can get more people than what we project might fit in the stands cuz they're not having the races on that day. >> We should say, so like I think the thing that was emphasized in the first paragraph is the the athletic events and the entertainment events, right? Uh like the imperial ceremony, but there is a sort of a political gathering was also popular. The Hippodrome was not just for sport. It was where emperors appeared before the people, where acclamations, public punishments, and political demonstrations took place and where the rival circus factions, blues, greens, reds, whites, became powerful social and sometimes uh paramilitary forces. And this goes on and on and on. So, this is a place >> Oh, it's a very important place. Yeah. >> to speak to the leader. >> Yeah. Vent sometimes. >> Yeah. >> Even insult them. >> Yeah. This is fascinating. I mean, it's human civilization has converged towards a mechanism that has clearly worked because for the empire in the east stood for a thousand years. So it's it's fascinating. We as humans throughout our history we would try to figure out, okay, how do we uh figure out how to govern large collections of humans in ways that they're represented in the way that they don't riot, they don't rebel. >> Yes. >> Um in the way that we flourish together as a people, all this kind of all this kind of stuff. >> So this is a real the East Roman Empire is a real study of something that seemed to have worked. There's lessons there even for the modern times, I think. And modern times again is very early human civilization. >> From a certain standpoint, yes, we are still early in >> Trying to figure it out. >> Trying to figure it out. Yes. >> Yeah. >> Now, mind you, I'm not advocating for this type of social organization and government. I'm what I'm trying to do as a historian is understand how and why it survived. Um and also to find the ways that it worked because it did work. We know that much. We have to start from that. It survived, it was resilient, there was a lot of you know, give and take in the exercise of power and I want to understand the mechanisms of that. >> So if we can before we go to Emperor Constantine uh the first and the founding of Constantinople, can we look at some maybe seminal events that led up to some of the topics we'll be talking about. So one of them uh maybe tell me if this is not as interesting as I think it is, but uh the Edict of Caracalla of in 212 AD. So um this is where uh you described that starting with Augustus in the early imperial period, government saw itself as a protector of the Roman Roman citizens, which is a minority of the people living in the in the Roman Empire. Uh it doesn't consider the the provincials. And then you described that the Edict of Caracalla that extended full Roman citizenships to basically all uh free inhabitants of the Roman Empire. So, uh what is it? Why was it done? Why is it important? Uh and how did it change the Roman Empire? >> Right. I agree with you that this is in fact a very important um it's a it's a real turning point in a sense, but it also is part of a process. So, for various reasons, the Roman polity um tended to bestow its metropolitan citizenship, that is Roman citizenship, uh on its allies and eventually in time on many people that it had conquered. And it had various mechanisms for doing so. It could bestow block grants. Sometimes it allowed its generals to bestow citizenship on people they thought would you know, would be um necessary players for controlling local societies. Sometimes they even allowed foreign cities to like non-Roman cities to decide uh who would get Roman citizenship by basically electing them to certain kinds of offices. Like they they outsourced a lot of this. And so, you have over time the steady growth of a Roman community of citizens who are not all in Rome and who are not all of Roman origin, whatever that means, but they they were not descended from people who were from Rome. And this proceeds um you know, it expands it expands it expands. By Caracalla's time, so early 3rd century AD, we can estimate that maybe at most a third of the free citizens of the empire are Roman citizens. Everyone else has local citizenship like you're Alexandrian or Athenian or whatever. And with you're subject to those laws. This emperor Caracalla, now that's his nickname. His reigning name is Marcus Aurelius Antoninus. >> [sighs and gasps] >> So just like Marcus Aurelius, it's the same name two generations later. >> Some badass names for emperors by the way. I don't know if it's chicken or the egg, but just some epic names. >> They've been remembered that way and so we read that back into the name and absolutely, yes. >> But anyway, Caracalla. >> Yeah, so he issues this edict in in 212 called the Constitutio Antoniniana named after him. Some people at the time called it the divine decree. Which basically extended citizenship to everybody. Now we don't know exactly why he did so. We can guess the reasons that he said he did so and this was to for religious reasons. In other words, he wanted people to go to the temples and pray and give thanks to the gods for him for his survival of a out of a coup. Which is whatever. And it it's it's possible that he this was a there was some kind of religious motivation here and he wanted everybody to do so as Roman citizens to honor the Roman gods and something like that. Other historians at the time said he did it for tax reasons. We don't know exactly. There might even have been a kind of ideology of a unified community across the empire playing in his if not in his mind in that of the Jurbers that is the legal advisers that he had. So that's possible. But less interesting than his motivations. Um more interesting is our the consequences of this and what it tells us about the Roman community. So, imagine a situation where like no modern empire has ever done this really, right? And what's significant about the Roman case is that not only did they extend citizenship to everybody, but they meant it. This is something that had teeth. In other words, it meant that the rights and opportunities that were available to Roman citizens, say, in the Roman Senate at Rome, are now available to everybody. And within a generation, you have a situation where like all of the emperors are provincials. Right? All the most powerful people in the empire from the provinces. >> This is like mind-breaking, mind-blowing. This is incredible. >> Yeah. >> The fact that the Roman Empire was able to do this and it stuck. >> They did it and they meant it. >> And they meant it. They implemented it. It was real. It's That tells you That's an important thing that tells you a lot of information about the populace of the Roman Empire. That the the fact that it stuck, that the government meant it, that the system encouraged, incentivized the government to mean it. It's incredible. >> Yeah. And there's a law of citizenship and it basically it says something like anyone born within the Roman Empire is a Roman citizen. And the Roman jurists and policy makers who were behind um this had some very interesting ideas about, you know, creating this kind of community. Look like imagine if I mean it's almost um impossible to to imagine, but the the British at the time of the peak of the empire bestowed British citizenship on everyone, including in India, and like suddenly made positions of power in London available to people from India, like including the throne. Like it's just unthinkable. And that has to do, you know, with the race and colonialism and all kinds of things, right? But not in the Roman Empire. So, we have a situation where the emperors be are all from the provinces, the most powerful officials are all from the provinces, and so a century later when Constantinople is created, this is it's created like like in in the Bosphorus, so like where modern Istanbul is, in the Eastern Roman Empire, it's created within a pre-existing Roman context, right? It doesn't bring Roman-ness to the East, it's already there. Um and so it's not such a leap to create a center of Roman power in the East because of that. >> And you've helped put together a book on the history of intellectual thought in these Roman Empire, but the interesting thing here, and I get asked that many times, but let me ask it here also, is the great man, the great woman view of history. Were there like Thomas Jefferson or those types of characters in the meetings as as as they're executing on the edict or developing the edict? Is that important or is it more about the system and the culture and just >> Uh >> Yeah. >> Is it how important was it cuz this seems like a revolutionary idea? And when we think about the American Revolution and the the founding documents, it seems like a few individuals were really critical about the wording of things and then words matter because those words create the reality and then it propagates through time. >> For the edict, I suspect that yes, there were a few people who were behind it and quite possibly jurists, uh that is Roman legal scholars. And and 212 is in an age of very important Roman legal scholars, um Ulpian, for example, and and and and and others. But we just don't have those We we have minutes of the meetings for the American Revolution. Not only do we not know who was in the room, we don't actually even have the whole edict. We have a papyrus fragment. This is a piece of ancient paper that's mostly torn and mutilated and we have like a bit of a paragraph from it Um in Greek not even the Latin original and it's kind of torn but it actually preserves the key clause. Right? And that's that's all we have of the original. We have contemporary sources that mention it. We have legal documents but nothing like a like we can talk about the people involved in it or even how it was immediately implemented. Like suddenly we know everyone in the provinces like there's this explosion in the number of people called Aurelius because that was his his Roman family name. And so when you acquired citizenship from that edict you became an Aurelius and there lots of Aurelius suddenly all over the place. Like we can see it immediately. Yeah, >> [snorts] >> but we can't actually see the implementation. >> But your instinct says that it was very individuals were very important in the development of that idea and execution of it. >> Probably yeah. Yeah. Even though it's part of a long-term process of expanding Roman citizenship this was a an explosion not just an expansion. >> And then you said that one of the important aspects about this edict is that giving equal rights to provincials was one of the things that helped deal with the with the crisis of the 3rd century and was the thing that I think you said quote sapped discontent from the relevant populations which then minimize the probability of uprisings. >> Well now that's a very long-term process. >> Yeah. >> The 3rd century is chaos there's a crisis it's a mess right? So [clears throat] what what follows the edict is uh quite a few decades of unrest. >> Okay let's put it mildly. Let's talk about the crisis of the 3rd century where 26 emperors were murdered in a period of 50 years. >> Yes. It's tremendous instability. >> So, there's civil wars non-stop. Almost all were of these emperors were generals and almost all were murdered by their men. [clears throat] So, civil war was the norm, hyperinflation, economic crash, plus there's a plague >> Yes. >> from 249 to 262 AD, which is a pandemic, possibly smallpox or Ebola. It killed up to 5,000 people a day in Rome alone, devastating the tax base and army recruitment pool. And uh the empire fractured into three pieces, but then Emperor Aurelian uh miraculously reconquered them in a period of 5 years. So, this is a lot of chaos. It's It deserves the name the crisis of the third >> Yeah, it's the perfect storm. Yeah, I mean, you have a crisis of imperial legitimacy. Basically, the army's proclaiming emperors left and right. Uh in an odd sense because ironically, this is in part because they're now a lot more stakeholders in the Roman tradition, right? There's all of these provincial armies and um they're appointing their generals as rival emperors. Uh but, you also have um a serious uptick in foreign invasions. >> Mhm. >> In the north, you have the creation of the Sasanian Persian or Iranian empire in the east and this was very, very bellicose. Um so, lots of foreign defeats, armies are defeated by um yeah, the quote barbarian enemies. You have eventually inflation and you have plague. And so, under the pressure, right, of all of those forces, it almost fell apart. Now, it didn't actually. Inevitably, there are also historians who downplay the crisis. Of course. But, like and legitimately so, right? We must push push back against every of these characterizations. >> 26 emperors died, bro. >> That's just the emperors. That's just the emperors. We're No, we should be >> In 50 years, every other year emperor dead. >> Yeah, that's >> Civil war. >> That's political instability at the top, right? Um but what what are the the lives of most people? So, if you go to Egypt, for example, which is kind of out of the right? Uh what's going on there? How are people living there? And we can see how people are living in Egypt because we have all these papyrus documents from Egypt. And for the most part, they don't seem to be experiencing a crisis. >> I mean, this is something you talk about. Constantine is one we'll get to him. Is uh one of the most murderous leaders in all of human history if you consider his own family. But, if you're living uh in the provinces, you know, um there's he's >> Oh, yeah, yeah. >> that murderous. >> No, no, no. He's perfectly got it. >> So, it's very important to actually remember about what the actual experience of the average citizen of the empire is like. >> Yes. >> Fair. Okay. So, but how uh maybe there's more we could say about the crisis. And then, of course, the the crisis is in part resolved by Diocletian uh as he does a hard reset on the structure on the Roman system of government. So, maybe you could speak a little bit more to the crisis that's important for us to understand and how Diocletian solves the crisis in 284 AD. >> Right. So, again, these are processes rather than specific events. Sure. So, for example, uh you mentioned that the empire kind of breaks into pieces. >> Yes. >> And we have um what's called sometimes the empire of the Gauls, Gaul or modern France and sort of Britain for a while are for decade and a half or so are kind of like this little separatist >> Mhm. >> empire. So, what's interesting about that is that this was not an attempt to break away from the empire. In other words, it's not some discontent provincials who are just tired of Roman rule and want to break away and do their own thing. No. This is actually just a it's an attempt by um provincial generals to take the throne, and that is to rule the entire empire. It doesn't work. They get only as far as the provinces that they take. >> Mhm. >> [snorts] >> And the only way that they know to set up a state is to make it a Roman state. >> Mhm. >> Right? Like that's the total of their political imaginary is like, well, we're just going to do a Roman thing here. Um and maybe we'll get, you know, we'll we'll we'll reunite the empire ourselves, or as happened, Aurelian, that is someone from the other side will reunite the empire. But it's always a Roman model. Like there's it's almost like there's no alternatives by this point. Um so that's interesting. Um what Diocletian does essentially is uh the way I I call I I I I characterize it sometimes is that he turns the problem into its own solution. In other words, the problem is too many emperors or want-to-be emperors. Because there's just more going on. Like one emperor can't deal with all these problems along the frontiers, with all the political problems. So what he does is he deputizes some of his colleagues, people he was on very good terms with from the army. These are all Illyrians, they're from By the way, for a few centuries, the emperors are all from this region of the former Yugoslavia that's the size of Scotland. That's where they all come from. >> Well, what explains that? >> Uh the army. >> Uh >> These are military men. You know, sometimes hard-drinking military men. >> Yeah. >> Very good at their job. Uh like Aurelian you mentioned, right? So there's a series of Illyrian emperors um who who restore stability. Um and the reason why there's so many Illyrian emperors is because they work their way up through the ranks of the army. Um and you know, the regions of Yugoslavia and at that time are sufficiently uh you know, economically underdeveloped that um there's a strong incentive for for young men to go join the army cuz you know it's a it's a living. >> Mhm. >> Um and [clears throat] so Illyrians become like kind of the backbone of the Roman army and they're described as these you know tough Roman conservative types. I mean these are you know these are these are tough military guys. I say that to draw contrast between say Hadrian whom I mentioned earlier you know who was a much more sophisticated artsy poetic cosmopolitan emperor. >> Also a hardass you did not want to mess with Hadrian um but uh these guys from the 3rd century are military men through and through like their whole careers are are in the army. >> Yeah. >> And they have like the military stubble. >> Yeah. >> They've got these thick necks. >> Yeah. >> They look angry. They've got their hands on their swords. Like they're not projecting an image of sort of calm and sophisticated you know bum bum you know. >> So solid military men military men from Illyria. >> Yep. So Diocletian gets a gang of them together. They eventually they're four. Uh we call this the tetrarchy. >> Mhm. >> Um and he basically allocates them to various um this wasn't any kind of uh hard division of the empire. Basically it was a it was a collaborative project. They each went wherever they were needed. >> It was is it fair to say that there was four administrative zones? He allocated each one to a zone. >> Broadly I'd say more military zones. >> Okay. >> Um so the administration tends to operate it kind of humming along in the background wherever these emperors happen to be right? This is a um we're talking about a period of big government now. So Diocletian creates a larger government possibly a larger army and in order to pay for that you need more systematic and effective taxation which means you need more census. You need more bureaucracy. You need more collect you know. So it is an era of of bigger government. >> So just to linger on that point is it fair to say that Diocletian created the deep state quote deep state? So the tax collectors, the the logistics, the thing that you've kind of hinted at, which is the separation of the civil and the military uh layer of society. >> So, the concept of a deep state, I've had discussions about that um with experts who work on the idea of the deep state. And I'm not sure that I would characterize the Roman Empire that way, in part because while you do have big government, you do have bureaucracy, you have you have bureaucrats who are buried in various echelons, and you you know, nobody knows exactly what they're doing and things like that, you I have not come across the idea of some sort of sinister elements, you know, who are working within the administrative apparatus to undermine the emperor. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> Like from a distance, occasionally you might get glimpses of this kind of thing. Diocletian, for example, once complained that nobody ever tells me anything. In other words, like he's so removed in part from the realities of what's going on on the ground that he he he felt sometimes he he'd lost touch. But I don't find this kind of idea of of undermining imperial power from within the bureaucracy. >> Yeah, I I think the one of the ways to explain that is because so, in a in the modern day democracy, in quotes, there's a kind of temporary nature to the leader at the top. >> Yeah. >> It's incentivized a deep state to form. >> Yeah. >> That so, the deep state thinks of themselves as a thing that propagates long-term periods of time, and then the leaders are very ephemeral, short short-term thing. With the with an emperor, technically, you can go for a long time, so it's best to be integrated deeply. >> Yeah. >> With the the bureaucracy should be integrated with the leader. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Um also, in in in modern social thought or or fear is that the deep state might be undermining, say, the democracy itself, rather than right, rather than >> Okay, it it cut both ways. >> But there is a bureaucracy. >> There is a big government. Absolutely. >> There's a big machinery. >> Yeah, compared to >> before. >> Before. Yes. So, Diocletian creates these larger bureaucratic structures, and these are the ones that define the society that I study. So, as a specialist, I focus on the period after him, mostly. Um but he implemented those to solve a lot of these problems. He was mostly successful. So, in terms of generating revenue from a much more troubled and kind of precarious situation, um in sustaining large armies, and putting down these rebellions, um and usurpations. And he was generally successful at doing that. Um so, he created the model that they kept for the next uh well, three centuries or more. >> But a lot of the elements of that model lasted even beyond that, right? >> Yeah. Like universal taxation. I'll give you example. Up until then, Italy was exempt from taxes. Italy was the land of the conquerors. The conquerors don't pay taxes to themselves. The conquerors live off the taxes that others pay, right? So, Italy was this big tax haven, right? Diocletian, Galerius, you know, his guys. These guys are from Illyria, they're from the Balkans. Like, why is Italy tax-free exactly, you know? It doesn't make any sense. It's a very, very wealthy, prosperous part of the world. And so, no, they taxed Italy. So, now, like, not only do all Romans have the same citizenship and the same law, they all have the same tax system. And the Diocletianic tax code, as it were, it's not a code, it's almost like a flat tax, which for us sounds regressive. But by those stand by the standards of that time, it's actually kind of progressive in a way. It means that like even elites paid like the same, right? >> Yeah. >> So, how much of all of this everything we'll talk about in the in the coming centuries is all about taxation? >> I think it's huge. Taxation is the heart of it. >> [laughter] >> So, I mean the functioning, the success, the flourishing of a society, the way the government works, the way the people are represented, all of it has to do with the civil wars and everything. It feels like taxation is at the core. >> Yes. Yeah. If you ask me to put my finger on one factor, it would be that. >> So, the taxation system that feels like the early framework for the Eastern Roman Empire. >> It did create a more sort of homogeneous framework, for sure. Uh by the end of the 3rd century, it's pretty much in place. What Diocletian does is a universal census. And this is continued by his successors. So, every taxable asset in the empire is census. >> Mhm. >> And so, you can now start to have a budget. >> Now, there is some element and then you push back against that. Some element of Diocletian where he legally limited social and class mobility uh in part for the taxation system. It made it in many cases illegal to move and illegal to quit your job. For example, as I read, uh to guarantee the food supply and land tax, farmers were legally forbidden from moving away from the land they worked, so the state always knew who to tax. And then for soldiers, sons of veterans were legally obligated to serve in the army to maintain troop numbers. Uh you argue that these were tax enforcement mechanisms, not a rigid caste system. And so, in practice, the empire remained a society of high mobility. >> This is a complicated matter. >> Yeah. >> So, let's talk for example about soldiers. It's probably the case that most soldiers um sons were expected to succeed them. Like most professions uh where you have an apprenticeship, the son will usually succeed, right? Um there are a number of other um professions that were kind of guild-like in nature. Uh like for example, shipping. >> Mhm. >> Uh where there were considerable assets involved um in order to secure contracts for insurance purposes, for the ships, and so forth. And it made sense for those assets to be, you know, passed from father to son. In other words, and and with them comes the obligation to continue in that line of work. Some of these things are inherently um uh sort of hereditary. And I don't think most people would have objected to it. Um the farmers is a probably the only case where it might have actually in- involved some coercion. There was a category of farmers, and we don't know how many of them, who were for fiscal purposes bound to the land. Um this doesn't mean they couldn't leave the land like physically. No one was preventing them from leaving, but they were um fiscally responsible for providing the taxes or rents or whatever, because the the state wanted to have a secure revenue stream from say those lands. And if Anyway, it's it's one of these complicated situations. This did create some limitations um on on those people. Um and it's a topic of current research uh these bound farmers as it were. Um who were tied to the land. It's more of a You know, someone put it that um you know, most of the time it's people who own the land. And it In this arrangement, it's the land who owns the that owns the people. >> But you're saying the bigger picture thing is that there was mobility, class mobility, and physical mobility. Meaning people moved, they And we'll see this as from the west into the east and Constantinople and all this kind of stuff. >> there's tons of mobility. >> Yeah. >> No, no, this is not a society where people are bound really uh to we like we don't find anybody who's who's like I am I really don't want to be a soldier, but my father was a soldier and now I'm obligated to be one like like we just don't hear those kinds of complaints. Of of people who don't want to be a soldier. Why wouldn't you want to be a soldier in the Roman Empire? I mean it's got a tremendous perks. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> So can we just linger on the why is it that Diocletian was able to stabilize that empire? It's like you know, the crisis of the 3rd century really threatened to tear apart everything. So why did some of these things that we talked about stabilize? >> Well, Aurelian had already united the empire territorially. So this is right before Diocletian. Um and what Diocletian did was put in place a system uh that reduced the number of rebellions. Simply by having four big guys with four armies, they managed to to put out all of those fires or most of them. Um and once you have stability and he also beat the Persians, I mean Galerius did. Um so they're starting to beat back foreign invasions. That creates a framework for economic stability. Um people need to you know, if they're going to invest in like land reclamation or expand production, they need to know that it's you know, these foreigners aren't going to come rampaging through marauding through the you know, stealing their cattle and you know, enslaving them and taking them off to work on agricultural farms in Mesopotamia. Like they need to know this. And if you provide that context of stability, the economic growth, the demographic growth will return. And Diocletian created that kind of that con- that context. >> So that takes us to Constantine, uh but first a quick bathroom break if I >> Sure. >> Quick 10-second thank you to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to legstreamin.com/sponsors. And now, dear friends, back to our conversation about the Eastern Roman Empire. All right, we're back and let's talk about Constantine and uh Constantinople. Let's go to the rise of the East Roman Empire. Who was Constantine? Tell me about uh his rise to power and the founding of Constantinople in uh 330 AD. >> Sure. So, Constantine was a son of one of Diocletian's colleagues. So, he comes from within the system. And uh the system is actually designed to be non-hereditary. In other words, the senior emperors would retire, the junior ones would move up to the senior position, and then they would recruit two new ones. >> Mhm. >> And they tried to skip the dynastic element. So, it So, it would be kind of let's just say kind of meritocratic, not whose son, you know, you were. Constantine was a son, he was passed over, but the armies liked him. He was actually quite competent. >> Mhm. >> And so, there's a series of civil wars among all of these uh successors of Diocletian, and Constantine emerges as the winner. There are periods when there are quite a few of them. There are like six at the at a time, but they they gradually whittle down to one. Um so, yeah, it's as long as you have the quarterfinals, semifinals, and then >> [laughter] >> the final war, and Constantine emerges in 324 as the sole ruler of the entire Roman Empire. So, that's who he is. He's He's definitely an insider, um very, very competent general at civil war. And um he gradually moves eastward. So, as he's conquering his rivals, who are often at times his fathers-in-law or his brothers-in-law, but because these people are all intermarried and they have alliances and they fall out, it's one of those kinds of situations. He moves eastward, and by the time he defeats his last rival, this uh an emperor called Licinius, in 324, uh he's in the East. And Licinius had his headquarters uh or one of his headquarters at this town called Visandio. Visandio is a city right where Constantinople was founded. >> Mhm. >> And it is at exactly the point where Europe meets Asia. So, on the Bosphorus. And it's a very strategic location. It always had been, right? So, whoever controls the straits of the Bosphorus, you know, we don't need to explain how important that is. Um and Constantine decides to create a city named after himself, Constantinople, on that spot. Byzantium. So, Byzantium essentially ceases to exist as a city and is replaced by Constantinople aka New Rome. So, it's pretty clear that right from the beginning Constantine intended this to be a kind of branch office of Rome in the east, a kind of copy and paste of Rome in the east. And it's a plan that his successors continued, right? Now, there are um a number of other cities in this let's say in the generation or two before this that were also treated as sort of quasi Romes. Basically, there was a historian in the 3rd century who said, "Well, wherever the emperor is, that's Rome." Right? Cuz emperors are now itinerant. They're no longer staying at Rome. They're mostly on the frontier. And Constantine is one of these frontier emperors. They will sometimes visit Rome, maybe once or twice, maybe once a decade, you know, something like this. Um so, Rome becomes something that can be sort of copied and pasted in other parts of the empire. A bunch of other cities get called, you know, a new Rome, another Rome, an alternative Rome, my Rome. Um and Constantinople is the last and most successful of those. >> So, maybe can you speak geographically the importance of Constantinople? It's an interesting place cuz it uh >> Yeah. >> When you're talking about a land so large as the west and the east with enemies with threats from all kinds of different directions, the location where the emperor sits is important. >> Very. So, look at Rome. Right? So, it's right in the middle of Italy, right in the middle of the Mediterranean. Very safe location in a way, but it's very far from the frontiers. And this is a period when emperors need to be with the armies, right? They're not senatorial emperors who are sitting in Rome having meetings with senators. They are military emperors who are marching along the frontiers uh mostly with generals rather than civilian administration. So, they're doing their job. Like, this is the hard work. They're slogging through the mud of winter campaigns, right? Uh they're not just sitting in a palace enjoying themselves when they could. Um but Rome just becomes inconvenient because of that. Um and if you look at Constantinople, it is kind of halfway between the Danube frontier and the Euphrates frontier. So, if you want to prioritize the east or treat it as an equal part of the Roman Empire as these emperors all did. In fact, almost all emperors who had a choice about whether they would stay in the east or stay in the west chose the east. There's only one who chooses the west and that's Valentinian later in the 4th century. All the others understand that the east is where it's at. And Constantinople is right between the Danube and the Euphrates. These are the two major frontiers. And so, it allows emperors to move between the two. And also look at its location north-south-east-west, right? So, north-south, it is the node between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean, right? And east-west, it's precisely where Europe meets Asia, right? And because there's a break there, so there's a Bosporus, the Sea of Marmara, the Hellespont, The Roman Empire during the civil wars, it would tend to break there. And you would have one emperor on one side in Asia, and you have another emperor on the other side. And this just kept happening. And Constantinople ultimately functions as a kind of clamp that unifies this whole area. So, basically the Balkans and Asia Minor and Syria as a kind of unit, right? And you know, what is a new Rome? A new Rome is among other things a new Senate, right? And Constantine and his successors recruit this new Senate for the new Rome. So, we're talking about maybe 2 and 1/2 thousand, 3 thousand men, you know, at its peak. And these are all recruited from all of these areas. You know, some come from Rome, but others come from the Aegean region, from Asia Minor, uh Eastern Mediterranean. So, these are the wealthiest people, usually most well-connected elites from the whole Eastern Mediterranean, and they come together and form a new purpose, common purpose in Constantinople. And the empire never breaks there again. Right? So, it it holds together this part of the world. The breaking point now, interestingly, moves to the Adriatic. Right? So, when in 395, we talked about East and West kind of splitting, it breaks at the Adriatic, cuz Constantinople is now holding that whole Eastern world together. Cuz all of these elites, they now they're invested in it. They're literally investing in it. They have to invest in it in order to be senators in Constantinople. Uh so, that's kind of one of the functions that it that it performs. It's a strategic function. It's a political function. It's also a cultural one, but um you know, we can talk about that, too. Uh but that's what you see there on that map, the northwest, east, south. >> So, uh just uh linger on it. So, you uh you do a podcast, Byzantium and Friends, but you're also a guest on podcasts. And I should mention you [snorts] being a guest multiple times on the excellent The History of Byzantium podcast hosted by Robin Pierson. I highly recommend people listen to it to all of your appearances. You have a lot of really fascinating ones. But, the reason I bring all of that up is one of the episodes you uh do the fun thing of uh selecting the top 10 emperors of uh Byzantium. And uh spoiler alert, everybody should go listen to the full list cuz you justify all the different options. Uh but, Constantine uh ends up in the number one spot. >> Yeah. >> And so, can you just add a little bit more depth why he would be in your number one spot now that we're talking about him? >> Yes, it's not because I sort of like him as a person. Right? [laughter] I mean, as you said, he was pretty murderous. >> Yeah. >> Right? All those wars. So, clearly ambitious, murderous, ruthless, basically. >> Can you actually speak to the murderous aspect? He He seemed to have murdered a lot of people in his family. >> Yes, that's because what we call his family were also alliances of convenience that he made on the way to the top. Um and when those alliances or you know, those you know, those wives or those fathers-in-law were no longer convenient or or turned against him, he had no hesitation in removing them. Um but he's also, you know, he gets a a little extra bonus because he also murdered his own son, Crispus, who was apparently a very competent and popular kind of general. And we don't know why. >> Mhm. >> Um he executes Crispus soon after defeating Licinius. And then follows it up with the murder of his wife, not Crispus's mother. And we don't know why. The funny thing is that when emperors do this sort of thing, if there's any kind of remotely like a good reason, they'll blast it through all of the media, right? Like Crispus was rebelling against me or whatever. There's nothing. He doesn't even try to justify it, which means it must have been something unjustifiable like I don't know, I can't process it. >> And also I read that the historians of the time would just ignore that that happened. >> Yes. Um Well, sort of. So, when Crispus is alive, it's all like praising Crispus as a oh, you Constantine, you great emperor and your wonderful son who will whatever. And then Crispus is executed and he just disappears from the like they never talk about him. >> Actually, as a as another side to a side, uh you I think you mentioned uh whether it's on your podcast or elsewhere that if if you had to have a beer with any of the emperors that you probably wouldn't. So, it's not like some some of the most impactful, some of the most um influential and great emperors that we talk about, they they may not be very pleasant people. >> Right. So, let's set aside whether you'd like to have a beer with these people. The reason I put Constantine at the top of the list is because the decisions that he made were so consequential. Just important and for the most part, um not bad decisions. Uh so, I couldn't not put him at the top of the list. The fun you know, the creating Constantinople and converting to Christianity and setting the empire on a path to conversion, these are major like world history level decisions, right? Now, not many emperors do that. In fact, Constantine is in like his own league when it comes to those kinds of decisions. My other criteria for top emperors were basically those who did the job well. Right? Not making, you know, these kinds of earth, you know, shattering decisions or, you know, world history changing decisions, but just who performed the role competently with results that impacted the lives of their subjects for the better. >> Mhm. >> So, those are the other criteria that I used. It's difficult to juggle these different criteria, right? In order to create a systematic list. And by the way, we historians generally don't do these kinds of things. But, you said it's fun. It is fun. >> was fun. >> Um and it allows you to talk about certain things that you you might not otherwise do. So, yeah, that's why Constantine was at the top. >> So, you mentioned Christianity. That was one other big component of his rule. What was the role of Christianity in Constantine's life uh in the lives of the citizens of the new Roman Empire? >> At this stage, Christianity doesn't yet have a role. Um it actually took the emperors When the emperors took it on board, that is, they made it a part of the imperial system, then it began to acquire a role within the system. Previously, it had imagined itself as having its own history, like not necessarily part of the empire or affiliated with imperial power. But, after Constantine, it does acquire a role. >> So, it's actually one one one way to ask that question which is fascinating cuz you said that there's like this there's Rome and then there's like cultures like uh or traditions like Christianity uh or or or being Greek, that kind of thing. >> Yeah. >> [snorts] >> Uh so, the one of the ways to ask this question is did Christianity triumph over Rome or did Rome capture Christianity? >> Right. Yes. >> Which which which is the which is the mechanism? >> I would lean more toward the second. In other words, that the religion was co-opted by the imperial system. Now, there are areas in which that's not the case and where the opposite happens. So, I'm not going to be absolute about it. But, I think it's very important to recognize that because Christianity generates this narrative of triumph, right? Um which modern historians perpetuate. And it's framed in very particular ways. In other words, that Christianity triumphs over the ancient religions. Right? So, displacing Zeus and Apollo and all of that and animal sacrifice is gone and like that's because Christianity triumphs. And that's a very narrow way of looking at it. In other words, you pick your enemy and then you can defeat that enemy, right? But, if you look in the other direction, there's like the Roman Imperial state. And you cannot say that Christianity either triumphed over it or even tamed it or anything. It actually became part of it. In In many ways that uh you know, determined its history for centuries and in fact down to today. Uh so, this is very different for example from the history of Islam. So, Islam comes into existence um without a a a a pre-existing state to receive it and take it on board. It creates its own state. Right? So, the Muslim armies, they conquer this empire and then they have to sort of govern it. Uh they think according to whatever Islamic principles. The Quran doesn't say anything about running an empire. Um so, that creates a completely different society, right? Where like Islam is a is really a primary kind of identity and and like drives a lot of developments. But, Christianity comes into existence within a very well-developed society and and political system. Now, here's the thing. We don't know exactly how many Christians existed in the time of Constantine. Well, we speculate maybe 10% of the empire. That might be very high, right? But, even if it's 10%, it's not a lot and these are not like elites for the most part. Maybe middle, you know, I mean, loosely call middle class, a few elites, a few slaves, like this kind of thing. Mostly urban, and keep in mind most of the population is rural. >> Mhm. >> Right? So, pockets of concentrated, you know, Christian groups in cities. That's what we're talking about. Not terribly politically powerful. >> So, Constantine's conversion to Christianity and moving the empire towards Christianity is not something where it's a gigantic majority of the people or it's a political convenience because it's the elites. It's something else. I mean, it's I mean, pretty revolutionary decision, I would say. >> Exactly. Now, there used to be theories that Constantine did this for like pragmatic cynical reasons. That he like wasn't a true Christian or anything, but there was some kind of political gain to be had here. But, I have never read a convincing account of what exactly that political gain is. Uh we now know that there are fewer Christians. Um they were not that influential. You can make an argument that bishops are kind of convenient social influencers, you might say. Like, you can use those they're not a threat to your position. >> Mhm. >> Right? So, a bishop is not going to try to take the throne. So, they're not dangerous political operatives in that way, but they do have some influence over sectors of society, and so that might be a Okay, I see that, but I don't quite see the argument for like going full Christian um just to get the support of some bishops who actually pretty quickly turn out to be some of them more trouble than they're worth. Um anyway, so I have not yet seen a convincing like political argument for Constantine's decision. Which means that you then fall back on a personal uh explanation that he did this because he was a believing Christian, right? And and and he came out, you know, in support of the religion that he held. And that's kind of where most scholars are today. Though, I got to tell you, historians are very uncomfortable about personal choice. Like, explaining history in terms of these kinds of personal choices. Because Constantine's conversion is like it's massive. It it it opens the door, it incentivizes so many people to also convert. Cuz Romans will generally do what their, you know, rulers will tell them. Um if we've mentioned Hadrian a few times, um Hadrian's had this lover, Antinous, Greek boyfriend Bithynia, who died in an accident in Egypt, whatever. And Hadrian said basically that Antinous should be regarded as a god throughout the empire. And he was. We have like more statues and busts of Antinous from all of these temples all over the empire than I think of anyone else except Hadrian. So yeah, if the emperor says like this is a person is a god now, you know, put statues of him everywhere, they will. And when Constantine comes out in favor of Christianity, yeah, suddenly people discover that oh, this is an interesting right. It's got the support of of the emperor. >> So one of the things here, going to the perplexity, Constantine's conversion to Christianity is usually dated to 312 AD, uh linked to a visionary experience before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. Do you believe that vision that he had this religious experience before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge? Here it says, "But historians debate both its nature and its sincerity." >> Well, >> Do you believe the sincerity of that experience? >> Before we even get to the sincerity, there's the problem with the sources. This is reported by authors writing later in the aftermath of a victory when the emperor like one of them had a dinner conversation with the emperor a few decades later and he said, "Well, let me tell you about the Milvian Bridge." And it's like, "Okay, I'm not going to believe that. I'm not going to take that at face value rather. It's a much more complicated." Um you know, this is how the emperor wants things to be remembered. That's different. Also, Constantine tended to have a lot of religious visions. He had had religious visions of Apollo before Christ. And we have sources that talk about that, too, that he went to this temple in Gaul and Apollo appeared to him in the form of light. Okay, Constantine has a religious vision every time he kind of wants to shift policies. Um and and his like profile. Like when he wanted to break away from his other emperors who used to go for the like they went for this kind of Jupiter Hercules model and he shifted to an Apollo model. This is a branding. This is emperors doing branding. >> So we should say that as you've described, Constantine is a pragmatist. He's very pragmatic. >> Yeah. >> But you're saying it's fair to believe based on the evidence that he actually converged towards being a Christian believer. >> Yeah, it's very possible in fact plausible that he thought the Christian God had helped him in battle. And you know, for someone like him that's as good a reason as any to support that God. >> But he was not like a hardcore Christian all the way through. He was a kind of a spiritual religious kind of person. He thought about idea religions more generally and just converged towards Christianity as a good religion. He also had ideas about what a good religion is and what a bad religion is that kind of stuff. So he's thinking in this space. >> He's tending not to be too explicit. >> Mhm. >> Um depending on the audience. So Constantine remains a pragmatist in the sense that he doesn't want to alienate too many of his subjects, right? >> Fair. >> Um and so he's sometimes a bit coy and or elusive about what he's getting at. When he's talking to Christians, he will talk about Christ. He will mention Christ. When he's talking to everybody else in like a general law, he'll just refer to good religion. And it's like you like you maybe you know what I mean, right? Um but but he's not going to like, you know, come to Jesus, >> Yeah. >> Um so even at the time when he's like supporting the church, like basically institutionalizing the church as an part of the Imperial system, but he's also putting up statues of himself that look like Apollo in Constantinople, right? So, the focal point of Constantine's Constantinople is the form of Constantine, and in the middle is this very tall column, and it has a colossal statue of Constantine on top, gilded, enormous thing. I don't know, like 8 m tall or whatever. But, it's a repurposed Apollo. It's even like visibly so. It's naked. It has the rays coming out of the head, right? Um and everybody knew it was an Apollo. So, that's Constantine in the guise of his old patron god Apollo. Still, but he's still Christian Constantine. So, he's sending all of these different messages. >> I mean, he likes being the the the the god-like figure. I mean, that that whole statue is just like, "I am the god." >> Yeah, it's assimilating yourself to Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> And I mean, a lot of the Romans, is it fair to say, kind of saw the emperor a little bit like >> Oh, yeah, they called him divine. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That There's not a hard theology there, right? Like, if you pressed them on the actual theology, they wouldn't they wouldn't say the emperor is a god. No. This is mushy. This gets very, very mushy. >> But, I mean, a lot of the Christians have a kind of humility before God. >> Yeah. >> I think when you have an emperor that's god-like, it gets a little weird >> Yes. >> in the way you talk about God. >> It depends on the context. Like, there are contexts in which you are an emperor and you're proclaiming your majesty. And then there are more more personal contexts where you might be you're more humble because, I don't know, you're being baptized or something. Like, those are different contexts. >> So, can you speak to the whole process of the conversion to Christianity, of the propagation of Christianity throughout the empire, and and Constantine's role in that? >> Constantine or his successors as well, because this was a gradual process. And it takes a very long time. So, let's um put it into perspective. We probably can't talk about a majority Christian society until maybe the 5th century or early 5th, mid-5th. We don't have data, obviously. Um and we can't talk about like a solidly Christian society until early 6th century. And by solidly, I mean maybe where the non-Christians are 10, 15% right? So, that's a long time. That's like five centuries after Jesus. That's half a millennium. So, we're talking about a half a millennial process here. Uh it's it's very long. >> But, it's only a couple of centuries after Constantine. So, it takes about two centuries to really make the Roman Empire Christian. >> Yes. So, very slow conversion, maybe maybe up to 10% tops under Constantine, then obviously larger and larger groups join the church even if only nominally, right? Um and until you get to the 6th century when you're clearly talking about a you know, mostly or overwhelmingly Christian society. Um a lot of this is just done through incentives and disincentives, right? So, bishops are given funds with which to distribute like charity and help to communities in distress. They have lists of widows and whatever they support. Um land is given to the church by the emperors or in wills so that they can engage in this kind of social policy. And then there are disincentives. So, emperors pass laws that increasingly restrict the exercise of traditional religion. Like you can't perform animal sacrifices, then you can't start doing these um like tying ribbons to make wishes or like all of these things like going out to sacred trees and doing this or that because they say, "Oh, this is kind of nefarious business or is like magic or whatever it is." Um and then they just gradually start outlawing it more and more, putting restrictions on like if you're not a Christian, you can't hold these high offices or you can't you're there's problems with your wills. So, they gradually do it like that. And this is how you Yeah, this is And it works. >> [laughter] >> It works. >> What explains uh the success of Christianity after Constantine? Why why why was it as a technology so successful at spreading throughout the empire? >> Christianity developed in a number of ways. So, it acquired a certain number of forms that were capable of appealing to different constituencies. In other words, there was um a an intellectual side to it. Um, the the sort of theology, the almost the quasi-philosophical or engagement with philosophical schools that could draw in, let's say, intellectuals. Um, there is a a public ceremony and ritual aspect where you can organize communities and cities to have processions or like have whole all these festivals that take the place of the ancient ones. You have a um kind of s- not it's not secretive, but it's kind of this initiatory aspect where there's this baptism and you you learn a a sort of creed and you're initiated into the religion with the prospect of a personal afterlife, right? And that appeals to other kinds of people. Um, there's also ways in which it um it integrated itself into the the court and the language of power. Um, also in the army, right? Soldiers now swear an oath to the Trinity, right? So, it takes all of these different forms that enable it to position itself, you know, here and there and, you know, in the streets, in the court, in the armies, in the churches, in the in texts and books. And so, it has this kind of manifold diversity, right? That makes it very adaptable. >> So, one of the things you mentioned that uh uh Constantine did not anticipate, did not realize that Christianity creates divisions between various groups. >> So, in part, this is happens when you have uh religions that make exclusive claims, right? Like my beliefs are true Mhm. And yours [clears throat] are by definition false. Not not just wrong, but false and even kind of evil, like maybe Satan put them in your mind to lead you astray, right? And this is inherently divisive. Like it is. So, there's this paradox where Christianity, in contrast to say the ancient religions, is both far more polarizing, but also far more powerful as a unifying force at the same time, right? So, ancient religions tended not to produce this kind of conflict or identities, right? Or or wars or these kinds of things. And they could under certain circumstances, but for the most part, they were not drivers of history in this kind of way. But when you have exclusive claims, then suddenly these very communities of that are sort of consolidated and have this very strong identity, um but you also alienate other groups that you then are in conflict with. Um so, this is why I I for one can't come down on whether, you know, Christianity's more of a unifying force or a divisive force in the history of the Eastern Empire, because it's it's both. >> And also trying to figure out whether the unifying or the divisive aspects are feature or bug. Maybe some of the divisive elements is a way for society internally to try to, much like the civil wars, to try to figure itself out. So, sometimes tension and conflict is a good mechanism for figuring out what do the people want. >> Or what's the truth? >> Yeah. Um so, the story that it likes to tell itself is that there's this like this one original truth and the hardcore of true believers is defending that truth at every moment against all of these evil heretics who are coming in and trying to corrupt it. In reality, what happens is that this truth is something that's evolving in the course of the controversies. Um and like often they don't know that they you know, believe that until in retrospect once they've had the fight and the winner has this position, oh now that turns out to have been the position we always held, right? Um and this happens again and again and again. You know, a lot of the time these Christian theologians who get into so much trouble and get branded as heretics and sometimes get sent into exile, they didn't mean any harm. They often just were stating what they thought everybody believed. >> Mhm. >> And then when they blurted out, someone is like often Alexandria is like, what? That's heresy. And then now you're now you're in trouble. Now you're getting into this fight and you might win, you might lose. But like a lot of them were kind of sort of well-intentioned in that way or they had no intention of starting a fight. But there's always someone who wants to start a fight. >> Yeah, I mean sometimes the fights are extremely intense over things that I could see on the surface are like iconography. So, it seems like a very subtle >> Yeah. >> uh debate like almost academic and then the a large number of people don't see it as academic. They they do see it like the devil put ideas in your head that are completely wrong and it's it's fascinating how that kind of division could emerge. >> Yeah. >> Uh I mean, I >> [snorts] >> the impossible question and I apologize for asking it, but maybe just worthwhile to to to try to think about it is on the grand scale of centuries of the East Roman Empire is religion. A constructive or destructive force for the empire. Did it help it flourish or did it hold it back? >> This society identified itself increasingly with what it saw as orthodoxy. Orthodoxy just means correct belief. I mean like every religion ultimately thinks it's orthodox, right? Let's But that's the conventional name, right? Orthodoxy today might be called Greek Orthodoxy. Um and I mean it's such an essential part of the culture. It really is. I I can't think of the two of them in the I mean I try to because as a historian I have to test the the models, you know, and try to see these things as independent of each other. But um ultimately it's very difficult to disentangle them and I would say that to the degree that this is a successful society historically, that its religion definitely contributed to that and played a role in it. Not without cost. Right? There are it mattered to them, it they valued it, but things that matter to you have a cost. And and they they paid that price. They were willing to pay that price for it. For example, at the very end they had to choose between Catholicism, Western rule where they essentially have to compromise on their faith or rule by Muslims, the Turks, where they would not have to compromise their faith. And some of them were explicit that they were preferring option B because the Turks will at least respect our identity. Like that's a cost. >> Yeah, but there's other layers like taxation and the functions of government that are connected to religion to the degree it interacts with the the tax system. But it feels like that's the engine of the society and and religion is more like the cultural layer. >> Yeah, so this is why I said that I try in in in thinking of the models that we use to understand the society, not to assume that religion is everywhere and for everything. I have colleagues who do that and I would disagree with them about this, but you're exactly right. There elements of the society that I like to see as their own thing, like the Roman identity for example. It's not the same as orthodoxy. Um but also the operations of the state. Um those are very pragmatic things and you see them intersect with religion in largely in areas of terminology or the vocabulary that they use or you know, like at the top, but not at their actual functioning. So in my field, I'm a historian who's tried to promote other aspects of the culture as having a kind of integrity of their own and not to subsume them all within orthodoxy. >> So I mean again, an an impossible way of asking the same question. If you asked a Roman, a million Romans across a thousand years, uh are you a Roman or a Christian? What would be the answer for them? >> Oh, absolutely. >> You don't get to say both. You're not allowed to do that. >> Why not? It's It's the true answer. >> Okay. So you're saying they're really tied together. >> With the overlap, but um if you were to and and this might be a somewhat more subtle conversation than most of them would want to have, but if you were to say is Roman and Christian the same thing to you? If they thought about it for a little while, they'd quickly be able to say no, because there were I mean, just logically, there were Christians who were not Romans. >> Mhm. >> The Bulgarians or the Rus or, you know, whoever. Um there were lots of Christians who were not Roman, and they did not regard them as Roman just because they were Christian. Conversely, they knew perfectly well that there had been Romans who were not Christians, and they knew this how? Because in the churches, like almost every week, they celebrated martyrs who had been killed by the Roman emperors in the past. And so, it was like the performance of violence by Roman emperors against Christians was like something they they remembered. They knew perfectly well. So, those two things did not overlap perfectly. >> Mhm. >> Um and there were some contexts in which you would be more Roman, and there were some contexts in which you would be more Christian. Um and you find characters who, and I love to do this, I find characters who um as some sources say, uh we didn't pay too much attention to Christian things. Like, they're just politicians, they were just doing their work. And then you find characters who, like, devote themselves, they go all in on orthodoxy and like monasticism, and they they just don't care about the Roman stuff at all. And and that is, in fact, part of the reason why I like this society is because it has these kinds of options for people to choose. And there's another one, there's the Greek stuff, too. Because their language is Greek, their literature is Greek, and so there are people in the society who go all in on the Greek stuff. Right? And I see this society as this kind of laboratory of these three elements coexisting in these fascinating combinations. Um usually it's combinations, right? But sometimes you will find people who are like kind of try to be purists in one way or another. Um and it's the only society in history in which you can do this. Cuz it's the only society that's Roman and Christian and Greek. But in different ways, right? >> Yeah, unfortunately, I think it's tempting, but it's probably impossible to say, if we remove the taxation system, would the would Roman Empire be more or less successful? If we removed religion, would it be more or less successful? If we uh removed uh Greek and kept it Latin all the way through, would it be more or less successful? It's probably impossible to do this kind of analysis cuz they're all so deeply integrated. >> And fundamentally, it also wouldn't be what it was. It would be something different. >> But there is a big time This is at the core of your work. And to understand why did the East Roman Empire last as long as it did? And why did the broader Roman Empire last as long as it did? Cuz it's it is one of if not the most successful empires in terms of duration and stability in a very dense part of the world. >> That's actually like my next project. I'm starting to write a book. Trying to explain just kind of from a analytical standpoint why. >> How did it last so long? >> Yeah. >> A lot of your work kind of hints at it here and there, but you're trying to do more systematic. >> So and we'll keep hinting at it. >> But to put a bow tie on Constantinople, it went from a very low population of maybe 25,000 people to 500,000 people in just two centuries. So can you explain how that happened? >> Well, it didn't happen through um just um demographic growth and reproduction in the city itself. That rate of growth is impossible for an ancient city. So when I say 20, 25,000, that's possibly what the ancient city of Byzantium had when Constantine decided to found Constantinople. And it grew to a city of about half a million in two centuries. That can only have been done in one way. And that is emigration from the provinces. So people must have been moving there um in in large numbers. Uh which is a movement that we can't see very clearly in the sources, but we have to infer it and then try to explain it. So um oh oh also there's another factor, which is that ancient cities we now know or suspect are what some historians called death traps. In other words, the density of disease is such that ancient cities probably are losing something like one to possibly 3% of their population per year. Uh so just in order to stay with a stable population, they have to import people. Right? Now, they're not like 17th century London. They're not that bad. >> Does diseases and plagues seem to be prevalent? >> Oh, yeah. Now, you know, Roman cities have some corrections for these sorts of things, like the way they distribute the water through the city. Um Anyway, they they weren't as bad as they could have been, but there's that. So not only to keep the population steady, but to expand it so dramatically means that a lot of people are coming in from the provinces, mostly the Greek-speaking provinces. So, you know, Greece, Asia Minor, and some of the major cities in the East that are Greek-speaking. And I started to wondering like, well, how did this happen? Like who are these people for one thing? And then I did some simple calculations. So, I mentioned earlier that we have something like 2 and 1/2 thousand senators um who are required initially to reside in Constantinople. Well, senators don't live in bachelor pads. Senators have manners, they have household staff, right? In Rome at the time, there's a calculation that a senatorial household was something like 100 people. Right? Just servants, slaves dancing girls, cooks, barbers, whatever, right? So, let's assume sort of conservatively that in Constantinople, it's only 30 people, which it might be lower, right? So, if you do the math, you're starting to get something like, I mean, closer to 100,000 people. Right? And that's just by bringing in senators, right? They come with people. Uh so, I think this was the nucleus of the population. Now, then Constantine also makes provision for possibly up to like 200,000 people to receive the the grain dole, the bread. Um so, that would have incentivized even more people to travel there because there are >> bread. >> Yes. And you can't live on that alone, but it is it's something. >> incentive >> Yeah. >> Is it uh true that he diverted resources from Rome to Constantinople? >> Absolutely. Oh, yeah. That grain, that's coming from Egypt. So, New Rome is literally stealing food from the mouth of Old Rome. >> Yeah. >> Now, Old Rome doesn't starve because they they divert other like from North Africa and Sicily, you can feed Rome, >> But it sends a strong signal to the people living in Old Rome that long-term should probably move. >> Some people do move. So, we know of some senators who move from Rome. Um it sends a signal about the priorities of the state. Like, they're investing much more in the East and that the East would be regarded as a equal parallel Roman, you know, world. >> Yeah. >> As we talk about diverting resources, the the slowly the the West declines and collapses in uh 476 AD. So, the Visigoths sack Rome in 410 AD. And in 476 AD, the last Western emperor is deposed, marking the end of the Western Roman Empire. High level question, what is the reason for that decline and the collapse of the Western Roman Empire? So, non-stop civil wars as we've talked about, weak emperors, there's a economic money crisis, so shrinking tax base, rising army costs, there was a loss of key provinces, especially North Africa, reliance on contracted barbarian troops as they immigrated more and more into the Western Roman Empire, cascading invasions, migrations amplified by Hun pressure, and then the East-West split. The richer East survives, the West can't stabilize under that split. >> The crux of the matter is that barbarian armies, so armies from outside the empire, put increasing pressure on it during the 5th century and for whatever reason when the Roman state failed to sort of suppress one of them and say settled them here or allowed them to have here or couldn't stop them and they took over a province like the Vandals did in North Africa, this created this kind of vicious cycle because then the Roman state lost access to the resources from those provinces, that is the taxes, and without those resources they couldn't you know, maintain, mobilize, pay for their armies. Then they had fewer armies to handle the next wave of barbarians that came in. The previous barbarians who settled kind of declared their kind of independence, they also could not be put down and so this created a vicious cycle that just continued in that way. It's not rocket science, actually. I mean, you can see it playing out. Yeah. Now, who these groups are, where they came from, why did they cross that those are different questions, right? But from the Roman standpoint, that's how it was experienced. These are armies that can defeat a Roman field army, right? In battle. Um and sometimes they do. Um and they then settle and take over territories. And then you lose the revenues. And so you can't recruit your own armies. And so anyway, that that's the kind of cycle. Um the East tried to help. Occasionally, they would send forces, but they were also subject to some of the same pressures. Cuz remember, the Goths cross the Danube um for the first time in a major way um in 376. Then you have the Battle of Adrianople a couple years later, where like one and a half field armies is just annihilated. And the emperor Valens dies. And the Goths are just like kind of loose in the Balkans. Um and there was then a long war with them for years. It results in a kind of truce where neither side wins. And the Romans for the first time accept the presence of this quasi-independent Gothic army in the territory of the empire. Uh this is unprecedented, as I said. And it creates a lot of tensions and dysfunctions. Okay. So why does the East survive and the West does not, right? There's So there's lots of reasons that we can give here. But one of them is a geography that we were talking about earlier. In other words, the without a fleet, which they don't have, the Goths can't cross over from Thrace or the Western Balkans to Asia Minor and go plunder some of the more prosperous provinces. So they're stuck in the Balkans. They're gradually pushed kind of in toward the Western Balkans, which is like the worst part you you know at the time like you want to be in. And eventually, they just decide, well, you know, it's kind of nicer in Naples. >> [laughter] >> And so they go to Italy, right? Just because there's just a lot more resources there for them. And that's one way that the East just kind of manages to it doesn't do this deliberately, but it the geography kind of pushes these invaders to the west. >> So, that's one. So, geography is some of it is sort of the luck of geography and >> Yeah. >> both of the invaders and the geography of the empire. >> Yeah. >> But, you know, the the East had a lot of invaders since >> Yes. >> and was able to still barely at times >> Yes. >> survive the invaders. So, and some of that could be luck, cuz some of it could be about the nature of the invaders and the the effectiveness of their military, all that kind of stuff. >> By the way, it worked in the other direction, too. So, if you have like Persians or Arabs coming into Asia Minor from the East, they usually can't cross over into your Balkan provinces. So, you can fall back on one side or the other side. They if you fortified Constantinople so that it's an impregnable bunker, which it was, right? So, you you you're holding your command center in Constantinople, you can alternate between your European or your Asian provinces, depending on where the trouble is. You can call in reinforcements from either side. So, the East does have that kind of advantage. This is not the reason why it survives for as long as it does, though it is a reason. Yeah, also they acquire flamethrowers at some point, which those help, too. >> Yeah. >> Um right? Ultimately, I think it's the decision made by local communities to stick with the Roman state. Like ultimately, like they're not going to actively side with invaders. And when the trouble passes, they restore community ties with Constantinople immediately. Like this is their natural political home. Um and and that's the question that I'm really trying to answer. Like why does that happen? >> You know, we should say just just like we were talking about multiple times that it the Roman Empire survives. Uh so it's not like the Roman Empire collapsed and then another Byzantine Empire was born. Really, there is a shift that happens and part of that shift is because of Constantine. Right, it's not just about where the capital is, but I'm I'm sure that there is just a general move towards that direction from the west to the east. And and that in many ways, you know, weak emperors and and the west uh weak leaders, uh the structure of government, all these kinds of elements put together, maybe demographic shifts and declines that have to do with the fact that the center of the empire has moved. >> That's right. >> And so ultimately, it's not that the West Roman Empire collapsed, it is that it the center of the Roman Empire shifted. And because of that, the historic West collapsed. >> It's quite striking. So for example, already by like in the 430s, Constantinople is basically codifying Roman law for the West. So Roman law in Latin is codified in Constantinople and then sent to the West as oh, here's your law code. And this is in the 430s, so after the alleged division between the two, which like I said, is kind of loose, it's not hard and fast. In the 6th century, it is the East that reconquers part of the West under Justinian. And not only that, he also recodifies Roman law on a much bigger scale and then that law becomes Western law. Uh so in a certain sense, Roman law as we know it comes from Constantinople, doesn't come from ancient Rome. I mean, ultimately it comes from ancient Rome, but we don't have those versions of it. We have the East Roman versions of it. Um it is East Rome that reconquers Rome. This is a funny inversion, you know, because Constantinople is situated in a province, Thrace, which always was sort of considered backwards. Right? In the time of like the early Caesars, if you were in Rome and you thought, you know, Thrace, it was like, "Ugh, that's like, you know, some sort of, yeah, armpit of the Roman Empire or something, you know?" But by Justinian's time, complete inversion. Like the capital of the Roman world, the heart of it, is there, and Rome is this kind of backwater provincial city in Italy, you know, that you've just liberated from the Goths, and it's kind of in ruins. There are wolves roaming the streets of the forum. So, it this is a complete, you know, overhaul of of the centers of power. It's turned inside out, almost. >> And uh I think it's fair to say that the reason the East part of the reason the East lasted as long as it did is the topic that we've mentioned, which is the structure of government. So, can we just zoom out once again and explain the key ways the government functioned in the East Roman Empire? And how it evolved over the lifetime of the empire? >> Very broadly speaking, there's a civilian and military. Right? And you might actually add the church. It's entirely plausible to treat the church as a kind of government institution at this time. But let's just stick with military and civilian. The military is pretty straightforward, would be recognizable to any student of military history. This is how you recruit, organize, equip, pay, and lead um soldiers. Um and the East Roman state tends to have a larger military, at least paper strength. Um active is a different matter. Like how many soldiers you take on a campaign is a different matter, but how many soldiers you maintain like in the provinces generally, right, is a it tends to be on the large side for a medieval society. Right? Um so, it compares favorably to say the caliphate later on, which is a much more massive territorial entity. Um, so the military is that. Um, you it can have anywhere between 100,000 at a minimum at a low point up to maybe about 250,000 at a high point depending on the period. It's a lot of people. It's a lot of men. Factor in their families, right? These are also like part of the whole, you know, military economic complexes, if you will. >> And they're career military, so like this is their job. And is the military for most of the history of the East Roman Empire defensive military? >> Mostly, but not always. >> Yeah. And we'll talk about Justinian. >> Sure. Um, and so then you have the civilian administration. Civilian administration does a number of things. Principally, it is to find the funds to pay for this army. Which is the single largest expense on the state budget, right? And so in order to find those funds, it has to have census of the assets, and it has to be able to tax them. And there are lots of different ways of doing that. So, the civilian administration has a number of tax bureaus, records keeping, this sort of thing. Also a legal branch for resolving disputes with the Imperial fisc. Okay. But the civilian administration does a number of other things, too. For example, the whole legal regulation of the of the empire, the courts, judges, courts of appeal, um, or also, um, issuing laws, keeping records, all of this. And those are the main bureaus that have to do with the subjects of the empire. >> Mhm. >> The emperors obviously maintain bureaus that are for things like diplomacy, right? Or running the palace staff, uh because the palace is a huge institution, right? With And then there are a number of endowments, um that, you know, major churches I guess Sophia, for example, has hundreds of staff, clergy to, you know, readers to whatever. And so they need to be paid. And so they need endowments. The imperial household, it has expenses. So it needs endowments, right? So there's a lot of land that's earmarked for these kinds of expenses that requires administration. So So this multiplies, right? You can go on and on and on and on. >> And I'm sure the tax code is not a simple flat tax. It's probably incredibly complicated. So it's just like in the United States, uh it feels like majority of the United States is basically lawyers and the IRS. That's I mean 90 98% I think is lawyers. I'm not sure. It's >> It's They shrunk the IRS down now to a size that it can't like actually do anything. >> They shrunk it down. It's just 90% now. >> [laughter] >> No. I think there is something uh this is another uh conversation about human nature and about the the nature of government, but there's there's something about like I think it's impossible to have an IRS type organization that doesn't grow. I think maybe with good intentions because you can't you have to like everybody always comes to you, "Well, I don't Here's my special case. I want my tax to be lower." And then you kind of add another line. "All right, if you have purple hair, you >> Right, right. >> decrease." And so you keep adding, and then of course, the more you add, uh the more opaque the thing becomes. Therefore, corruption seeps in or you know, maybe not a a like official corruption, but corruption light. And then you that tax code grows, and then all of a sudden you have these big institutions that then encourage corruption, and then there's a bureaucracy and there's a momentum, and this is just how humans are. >> Yes, so this happens in East Roman society, too. I'll give you some examples. So, there's not a tax code as such, um but what you the way it operates is through basically exemptions. So, you petition for an exemption. You might be a monastery, you might be a wealthy land, you might be someone well connected to the court, you might be a struggling provincial village, and you petition the emperor or some official and say, "Hey, we know we had bad season, or the barbarians came through and they took all of our we can't pay the taxes. Could Could we have an exemption?" And emperors often are granting these exemptions for very specific things, like maybe for this year, or for that tax, or whatever. The problem is that the emperors are discovering every once in a while that their officials are are granting these exemptions sort of on their own. So, every once in a while the emperors have to like clear house, and they have to like like cancel all of these exemptions and start the whole process again. But, later on when once we start to have documentation, like maybe in the 11th century, we see that every little Well, not every, but we have all these monasteries, these little villages, these high officials, and they all have these documents that give them exemption from this or that or the other thing, and it gets so complicated, and that's how it works. >> Uh >> But, it is the engine of society that makes the whole thing work cuz you have to fund I mean, there's an infrastructure projects, but you have to fund the army, and the army is necessary to defend against all the military incursions. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> A good fraction of the bureaucracy seem to have been eunuchs, which are castrated men. Can you explain why this was a prominent thing? >> The eunuchs are part of the household staff of the emperor. So, that would be like What would it be? The the the West Wing of the White House or something like this. So, they are the people who handle the Imperial person, the bedchamber, the organization of palace life, uh things like banquets, you know, these kinds of things, the wardrobe. And why are they important? So, for for starters, if you're like physically with the emperor all day, right? Like you're handling the meetings, you're right? People can come to you and say, "Hey, I need you to put in a good word for whatever, right?" So, they can get things done. So, you you bribe them, they get things done. So, they're very useful in this way. They're also kind of hated for that reason, right? But, they're also kind of there to be hated. In other words, they soak up a lot of the frustration that people sometimes feel when they're not getting, you know, their what they want from the court. Okay. That's one thing. Here's the other thing that's more interesting. How do you as an emperor make sure that your bureaucracy doesn't displace you? Like if the bureaucracy is handling all the matters of running the empire, what do we need you for? Right? Like the bureaucracy can develop rules of its own for solving all the problems, uh for dealing with petitions and exemptions and whatever. Like they can do it. So, where's your power exactly? So, what the emperors did not want is to be displaced or overshadowed by these kinds of more important institutions. And so, they would often set up like parallel tracks of power. This could be kind of a bit confusing. So, eunuchs were perfect for this reason because often their origin was from outside the empire or they were former slaves, they weren't connected to like networks of powerful families. So, you knew that they would generally be loyal to you because they depended entirely on you, the emperor, for their position and their power. And what you would sometimes do is you'd say, "Okay, I'm putting you in charge of like this army." Literally. Like putting you in charge of an army. Just so that you can counterbalance the the kind of networks of established generals, and you'll have like no eunuch from my wardrobe. You know, I'm putting him in charge. And so this kind of shook things up a little bit so that people who were part of a system or a network could never fully count that that could get them all the power that they wanted. They now they have to answer to this eunuch from the wardrobe who's like outside of their system. And sometimes these eunuchs were extremely competent. Um like Narses, Justinian's general, who defeated the Goths in Italy in this massive battle. Like this guy was a total hard-ass. He was just a little old man. He was very He was very old. He was tiny, and he was a eunuch, and the Goths laughed at him, but he had the last laugh, right? >> Is there some component to them being eunuchs so they can't propagate the bloodline? >> Yeah. They can't have their own family, so they can't be like looking out for their own offspring. They're kind of uh um isolated individuals who depend entirely on your favor. >> Is it uh known whether the castration is almost always by force? >> There are eunuchs in society generally. They're often bishops. They're appointed patriarch of Constantinople sometimes. They're They're in all kinds of positions. Um many of them are children who are enslaved and castrated against their will. >> Yeah. >> Sometimes, however, they are castrated very much according to the will of their families. >> Mhm. >> Um in some parts of like um in um the in Caucasia, there were some regions that were famous for producing eunuchs. Also, I mean in Persia and so forth. Um but also we are pretty sure that this happened within the empire because there were some families that like really wanted to place a eunuch at the court. Um so from Paphlagonia, there were a number of uh this is in northern um Asia Minor. Um and so they would uh it was almost like a family uh strategy. >> I mean, it's fascinating. It's fascinating that uh they had so uh so much representation in the inner circles >> Yeah. >> of the emperor. And therefore had real influence. >> Oh yeah. But this was the case always even in Rome. Like in the Julio-Claudians under, you know, the first Caesars, there are all these powerful eunuchs. And the the senatorial class always hates them. I mean, it's just it's the same dynamic. >> Uh one of the interesting things you said as an aside in one of the many podcasts I listened with you is you said that there were no isolated people. Uh you know, people that are disconnected uh from the empire. Um maybe who, for example, don't know about the taxes or just don't feel integrated to the system. I mean, that's really interesting to me. That there's so much connectivity. There's so much cohesion >> Yeah. >> as an entire peoples. >> These people do not exist, these isolated peasants. Th- This is a myth that I one day I'm going to write a a chapter about this uh because it's this idea that you occasionally encounter, actually quite often, in the scholarship that there are these sort of rural communities out there somewhere that don't know what's going on in Constantinople. They might not know even know who the emperor is. Uh they're cut off. Maybe a tax official would show up uh every once in a while, maybe not. And they just live their lives on their own unaffected by the say state because the medieval state we suspect is a, you know, always powerless and can't, you know, affect people's lives. There's no proof for these communities at all. At most, you might try to find some like actual hermits. Like actual Christian ascetic hermits who try to go out and find this situation. And sometimes they're described in the text as like go so so and so went so far out into the mountains that like not even the tax census people showed up there, which which tells you how they think about what it means to be isolated, right? So this is not a this is a state in which every arable, you know, piece of arable land has been censused for centuries. It's not like you can hide a village, right? And the the the taxation process is not like what they visit once a year, give us some coin and we'll leave. Um it's actually more like three times a year. And the taxes is not just coin, um and maybe payment in kind or something, but it's it's a whole bunch of things like services and recruits and all you're right. And once you start adding all of these things up, it it creates a very dense um institutional matrix in which all communities are enmeshed. They can't get out of it. Um also they they have a church, don't they? And if they have a church, they have the calendar. And of course they have the calendar because So like how do they organize time and space and boundaries and all of these things? Now this is all state institution. How do they pay for anything? Well they have coins. Coins are everywhere. So I think that these institutions structured the way that everyone, even in village communities, even in the most isolated ones supposedly, how they thought about things like time and space and value and relations and power and kinship and so forth. >> So what you're saying is taxation is the thing that brings the empire together. >> It is, the principle, yes. >> I mean it's it's true, right? This is like this is how you know. >> Yeah, but on top of that is layered things like the economy, coins, right? But also there's a church. >> Yeah, and the church is important. Just as you said. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And this church is throughout the empire. >> Yes, and they have sermons and and they pray for the emperor after this service. No, there are no isolated communities. >> So, uh one of the things I believe you mentioned just it would be nice to um elaborate on is this term of monarchic republic. So, we've been throwing around words like kingdom and republic and empire and uh monarchy. So, what what is the actual What's a good applicable term to what this thing is to East Roman Empire? >> That's an excellent question and I'm glad you um you you you you flagged that. Because we call it conventionally Byzantine Empire and it's neither of those things really. Um we talked about Byzantine. >> Yeah. >> Now, empire is a bit of a problem because um first of all uh there's no term in Greek um in the Greek that they use at this period that corresponds to our notion of empire. Um it's not part of the official terms. It's not even They didn't even have a term for it. You could have There's some terms that might mean something like state um arche maybe or kratos. Um but for the most part it's either basileia, which we might translate as monarchy, um or politeia, which is polity. And and politeia in Greek polity is a Greek translation of Latin res publica. >> Mhm. >> Res publica doesn't mean republic the way we mean it for the Romans, like a non-monarchical regime, right? That's how we mean like the American republic or you know. Um that's a usage that came in later, like during the Enlightenment. Um in Latin, a res publica is the common affairs, the common interest of a people who are constituted as a political community regardless of the type of regime that they have. Like even Cicero could imagine the Roman res publica governed by a king or by a senate or by a democracy. And they continue to use that term. We don't use it according to Roman norms. We use it according to modern norms. The term republic. Um so they continue to call it a res publica or a polity under the emperors as well. Right? And it was understood that the role of the emperor, whether he's Caesar or basileus or in whatever in whatever language, was to serve the polity. They keep saying this. So the terms that occur in the sources for most commonly are basileia of the Romans, polity of the Romans, or Romania, which is the proper name of this state. Not empire. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> Now, empire. Empire in modern English, commonly, an empire is a state that's created when one group conquers a bunch of others and rules them. It could be an ethnic group, it could be an ethno-religious group, it could be a political group, whatever, but there's an act of conquest and results in a state where one group is ruling over others. Uh that's not how Romania is actually constituted. We've talked about this. It's for the most part all Roman citizens ruling themselves like Roman subjects ruling themselves um through their own government. Uh so it's not an empire strictly speaking. Now, occasionally they will conquer other people. Like we talked about the warfare, sometimes it's not just defensive, sometimes it's offensive, right? Um in that case, you do establish a um an imperial relationship. Like we the Romans are ruling over this other group. Could be Slavs, it could be Bulgarians for a while, it could be whatever. Um or even some um Muslims in northern Syria for a while in the 11th century. Uh who and you are not Romans. And that's an imperial relationship. The question is how many of these imperial relationships do you need to decide that, well, we've reached a tipping point and now we're just going to call the whole thing an empire. Personally, I don't think we ever reached that point. I mean, all states, even today, have like minorities. Some of them are part of that state because they were conquered once upon a time. But, we don't call those states empires necessarily. Even though, like Look at the United Kingdom. Well, Wales was conquered. And, you know, the Welsh have their own identity, their own language. But, I don't know that you would call that now an imperial relationship. Maybe. I don't know. >> I think there's also a synonymous use of the word empire that refers to the power that the state has in the global context, geopolitically. So, sometimes empire is used synonymously with superpower. Meaning it's one of the primary nations in the world, and it doesn't necessarily have to do with the imperial nature of uh its history. >> That's true. >> Hence, the use of American Empire, US Empire. >> Yes. Though, you would never characterize the American political regime as an imperial one in in so far as it does not have an emperor, for example. But, anyway, um Yes. The problem is that in my field, we use the term empire conventionally even when what you just described is clearly not happening. Like, even toward the end, it's not a major world power. It like has a few islands in the Peloponnese, and but we call it empire and the emperor. And it's like, it's completely ridiculous. There's not even a term in their language for that sort of thing. Um anyway, we can call things whatever we want, just so we understand what the reality is, and what we are using those terms to mean. I think that's the important thing. Yeah. >> So, then let's look at words which are both fascinating, monarchic republic. >> Right. >> Why is that a good term for uh uh the East Roman Empire? >> Uh because they understood it very much to be a polity in the Roman sense of a res publica that was governed by a regime that was monarchical. >> So those two elements, there's a emperor dude at the top and it's functioned politically like a republic. >> Also, the emperor was expected to be working for the republic. Like they keep saying this. Um so like this was their conception. Um you don't find it, for example, in other kinds of dynastic empires. Um the ones that don't emerge from within the context of an ancient republic. So this is another reason why I find this civilization so fascinating. I mean, we mentioned the the Greek and the Roman and the Christian elements that are kind of jostling together. This is fascinating to me in part because it's this weird combination of monarchical power, like in terms of executive institutions, and a republican kind of baseline ideology on which it operates. Yeah, and they they sometimes come to a head. >> Is there at all a degree to which it's a military dictatorship? Because especially when it's a general in the emperor's seat. Yes, there's a republic, yes, there's political discussion, but the army has a lot of power. So to what degree is it a military uh dictatorship as is sometimes talked about when you talk about the Roman Empire? >> Yeah, so Augustus's position, for example, and that of his successors is is talked about as a military dictatorship. In other words, when push comes to shove and the basis of political power is the army, then I suppose it's legitimate for historians to talk about a military dictatorship. But here's why I don't think the Eastern Roman Empire is a military dictatorship. Even though, again, the emperors control the armies um and the armies themselves will often have a say in um who becomes emperor, like through the civil wars that we mentioned. Okay. The reason why I don't think it's a military dictatorship is because they almost never, very, very, very rarely, use the army as an instrument of social control. Is that Is that strange to you? >> Because you see that being done through so much of human history. >> Yeah. >> And they the fact they don't resort to that I mean they for a thousand years that's just not a thing. >> As a way of keeping down the population, you just don't see it. And part of the reason for that is I don't think the population needs to be kept down. Like this gets back to the consensus that we were talking about. The understanding is that the army is there to protect the Roman people >> Mhm. >> and is often recruited among them. Um and for most of the period that I study is like lives among them. So when the emperors have to call up the army, they're literally calling up soldiers from local villages. >> It's just incredible that this worked. I guess the civil war thing is is a mechanism is effective. Cuz you just throughout human history, I mean you look at even recent history, it's just a very common thing for a authoritarian figure to use the army to suppress people. >> Yeah, but isn't that dangerous though? Look at how many modern regimes tried to use their own armies against their people who are in a moment of rising up? Well, it's a risk. Like um the Arab Spring. >> Mhm. >> Especially in Egypt. And you could you could tell for those three weeks that Mubarak was trying to decide whether he could actually count on the army to suppress the protesters or not. Because you never know what they're going to do if you ask them to fire on a civilian population. Uh it can backfire on you badly. Um so I think that is a very dangerous force to use and even in the context of modern regimes can result in a regime change. >> Absolutely and there's huge wisdom behind that but you know leaders are not always wise, often not wise and often maybe they start out wise but power corrupts them over time and so the fact that this does not happen just over and over and over and over and the Eastern Roman Empire is is there's just signal there that's fascinating and I mean this goes to the book that you want to be working on about why the thing lasts. >> Yeah. So there's one emperor who does do that and that's Justinian. >> Mhm. Yeah, he [clears throat] gets wild. >> Yeah. >> So let's talk about Justinian. We have to we have to talk about Justinian. >> Yes. >> One of the most impactful Roman emperors in history started as a peasant and rose in power to become emperor. He fought wars of conquest and was very consequential and impactful. >> Yes. >> So who was he? >> All right, so Justinian was the emperor from 527 to 565. So quite a long reign. He was the nephew of the previous emperor Justin the First who was an older man, ruled for just under a decade before Justinian. And both of them came from small, poor agricultural communities in the Western Balkans. >> We should say that Justin the First ended up in your worst 10 emperors list. >> Yeah, for one decision. He's not the worst of the worst but he he made a very, very bad call when it came to church policy, tore the church apart. You shouldn't have done that in my view. But by the way, Justinian is an immensely complicated figure. I found it impossible to decide first of all whether to put him on the best emperors or the worst emperors. >> Yeah, you I mean you're being spicy, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. Um, you have to be provocative about these things. And I thought omitting those two would be that. And it And it was. So, and here we are talking about it. >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. The controversy. >> Yes. >> Yep. >> Um, and through the all the systems of social mobility that we've been talking about, Justin ended up emperor uh um because of his military background. He just rose through the ranks. He was in the right place at the right time, became emperor. And then he gradually positioned his nephew, Justinian, whose background we do not know. Literally, we do not know anything that Justinian did before the age of something like 38 when he appears on the historical record. Um, same background. We know where he came from, but we don't know what he was doing all the like Was he an active soldier for decades? We don't know. Um, probably not. Um, he comes equipped with like a knowledge of something like Roman law and some Christian theology. That seems to be like what he knew. Um, and then Justin positions him to become his successor eventually. Kind of reluctantly, but he does. Justinian also marries Theodora, um, who's a woman who's a former sex worker, which is a controversial choice. Uh, by this point he's a senator and is holding all of these top generalships. And then he becomes emperor. She was also very influential. >> Yes. Very powerful, yes. >> Yeah, under his Yeah, during his reign. So, the interesting thing about Justinian's um uh choice of, let's say, associates, and that includes his wife, is that he seems to have just gone for people he like he thought were talented or that would be good for him as a ruler rather than their social class or prestige. And so, he accumulates around him quite a motley group of odd, sometimes um, like these kinds of um disreputable people. Um, but they did what he wanted them to and they were blasting consequences for world history. So, he has an eye for talent and and he doesn't hesitate to pick people that others might look down on if he thought they could get the job done. And these are some of the attributes that enable him to be as successful as he was. Um, so that's his background. He's a Latin speaker primarily, but he knows Greek, too. >> So, here he is but he had so like I mentioned the wars of conquest, he also overhauled the Roman law. >> He appointed a committee. >> Yep. >> Uh, as one does. To just take the whole of Roman law and condense it into what today we call the Corpus Juris Civilis, which is the the body of Roman civil law. And this is a massive work of codification. Um, and and it is our main source for Roman law. Like overwhelmingly, what we call Roman law is what Justinian's committee and specifically this character called Trebonian, who was a very accomplished jurist, uh, said it was. >> Mhm. And that did that persist through time? Did that last? >> Yes. Still to this day, when you study Roman law, you're studying Trebonian's committee. >> And so, in terms of our modern society, how much of impact did that have? This codification, this this stable law that ran the East Roman Empire. >> Well, I mean Roman legal concepts pervade everything from philosophy to political thought to actual Roman legal practice. I mean, depends on what country you're in. So, in many of the countries of Europe, it is the you know, current law. And it is to some degree. I mean, I'm I'm exaggerating, but legal scholars have to study Roman law even even law students have to do that. Uh, not in so much in countries like the States or Britain which have the so-called common law system. But, ideas in Roman law about, for example, property, right? Ownership, things like this. These were hugely important in formulating ideas, for example, about sovereignty in political thought. Yeah, it's one of the most important and influential acts of committee work ever done in Constantinople. >> Uh, so going to Perplexity here and looking at some aspects of the Justinian's laws. They include a systematic structure of private law, persons, things, actions, strong protection of property and contracts, detailed family and and inheritance rules, and a hierarchical status-based view of persons. These elements became the template for later civil law systems. And some over laws overall structures, tripartite schema, law organized around personae, legal subjects, things, and procedural actions. Essentially, who, what, and how of private law. And it goes on. I mean, a lot of things I'm reading here really sounds like what we think of as law. >> Yeah. >> Marriage, >> Look, most of it's about property. >> Yeah. >> [snorts] >> Marriage is a legal status. Lawful matrimony required conformity to rules about age, citizenship, and uh, connubium or prohibited degrees, incest rules, adoption relations, etc. All that kind of stuff. >> Oh, yes. Who you can marry, who not. >> What was their view of homosexuality? >> Well, I mean, Justinian thought it caused earthquakes. Uh, No, did it? >> Yes. >> Did it? >> Yes. Um, >> Fascinating. >> No, for him, no, for so for Christian emperors or Christian authorities, this is a reprehensible immoral act. Um, depending, it could be punished. Um, Justinian did try to punish it. Uh, pretty brutally. I mean, ultimately, lethally. Um, however, this gets really tricky here. Um, because what counts as a homosexual act is not clear to everybody, right? Um, and in addition to which, there This is a society that generally will not go after, um, let's say, scandals or deviance or however you want to call it, like, systematically. This is not like some There's no inquisition. There's no uh, social police. If there's some sort of scandal, and this comes out, then it's a problem. But, they're not actively going to track down, hunt down, monitor, survey, interrogate people about their sex lives. I mean, it's It is in a way, despite having views that we we may not agree with, um, about sexuality, it was it was it was generally humane in the way of just kind of leaving people alone. >> I mean, that said, there's some I'm just uh, I'm perplexed. He looked up Justinian Roman law view of sexuality. They're pretty uh, harsh and like adultery and um, just getting freaky with it. >> No, Justinian was more zealous in this matter. Definitely. >> Even though he married a sex worker. >> Well, sex work wasn't illegal. >> Right, but it's a bit spicy. >> Yes. And, in fact, it was illegal for a senator to marry someone from such a disreputable profession. And, he got his uncle to pass law changing that rule so that he could. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Love knows no bounds. >> Yeah, actually Justinian kind of says that in one of his laws. >> Oh, wow. >> He No, he clearly loved her. There is no There is no question. >> actual love. I mean, this you'll have to like this guy. Started as a peasant, surrounded himself by all kinds of weirdos just because they were good at what they did and it doesn't really matter class or not. >> Yes, but there's a lot to be said against him, too. Um I like so much. >> Let's get into it. So, he did launch uh wars of conquest. What was his view of war and conquest? And what um may- maybe what are the things we should mention in terms of expansionary wars? >> He thought he was authorized by God to reconquer the lost provinces of the Western Roman Empire. And when he did so, that was proof that God favored him. And he he was generally opportunistic about it uh and for the most part kind of successful in that he he intervened in the most critical moments of the histories of these barbarian, you know, kingdoms in the West and exploited their weaknesses and took them over. Now, in the process, many of these provinces were ravaged by war, uh Italy for decades. Um he overstretched his resources leaving his successors with a much more dangerous um uh situation to defend. Um and he he disbanded certain armies that were meant to protect Constantinople, sent them to Italy, for example. This weakened the home front. Um so, he left a very difficult legacy for his successors in that way. Plus, some of the provinces that he conquered were so like Italy, I don't think it could even pay for itself after a certain point. Um so, I'm not sure that some of those decisions were the best ones. North Africa, yeah, probably that paid off. Italy and Southern Spain, not so sure. >> So, that's one of the big criticisms is even though there was conquest it was overextended and the those lands were not economically stable. >> Yeah, and >> broke. >> Yeah, aka conquest is not just good, you know, in itself. I mean this is I know that some rulers in history are called the great simply because they conquered something. But that's that's not enough. I mean I know that rulers do this. But if we're to compare them to each other we should at least expect that they have a a plan or that it works out well in the end, let's say. And I I don't think that many of these did. >> I should say that as far as historians go, I think you don't give too many points on the conquest front. >> Personally, I >> Yeah, I don't. >> Yeah, so your value comes from is a leader implementing lasting change like a stable >> Was he good for his subjects? >> Yeah. >> Were they living better because of him than otherwise? >> And also like longer like the long-term nature of it, not just >> Yeah. >> not just like a temporary thing. >> Are you strengthening institutions that benefit your subjects? >> Mhm. >> That. And some he did, some not. So look, in order to send those armies west to make those conquests, he stripped the east of of armies. So the Persians could just march in and like destroy Antioch. Like that's a major strategic failure. And I don't think you get a pass for conquering North Africa by surrendering Syria. >> He did [snorts] rebuild Constantinople and reconstructed the Hagia Sophia. >> Yes, after he he and his soldiers set fire to it. Yes. Um it in the Nika insurrection. So this is when he the people of the capital rise up against him and there's like about 10 days of street fighting and he brings in some armies, and eventually, he orders his armies to slaughter the protesters, leaving more than 30,000 dead. Like, this is an enormous number. And a lot of Constantinople burned in the process, and yeah, he rebuilt it. So, his building is considered one of his uh great points. He built the Hagia Sophia, for example, which is a magnificent church, like, hands down. Um it's just a fascinating monument to study, too. And yeah, that was That was him, too. I'm trying to give you a sense here that the good and the bad are mixed in such equal measure that like Buridan's ass, I can't decide which which bale of hay to put him on. >> But there's a grand scale to the good and the bad. >> Yes. Yes. >> For many people, that's what makes for a top 10 emperor list. Uh what about the plague? >> Well, he wasn't responsible for that, at least. Okay. [laughter] >> The The Plague of Justinian, aka 541 AD. So, some historians claim that it killed half the population and ruined the empire. Uh you are skeptical on this view. >> Yes. So, this is a bubonic plague, >> Mhm. >> um [clears throat] which lasts, uh more or less, for two centuries. It comes in and it goes, and it's kind of endemic to large parts of the world. 541 is when it starts to break out in the empire, in Constantinople, and other cities, and it spreads. There's been a lot of debate about this recently, um cuz now we've actually isolated the pathogen. It's Yersinia pestis, like, we know this. Just like a generation ago, this was just guesswork, but now there's all of this new like laboratory science work that's come in to fill in some of the gaps in in history. >> That's so cool. >> It is. It is. There are lots of discussions about that. Um and so, um the study of diseases and virology have just become much more important lately. It still doesn't tell you, however, like mortality rates and historical impact. Like for that, you still need standard old-fashioned non-laboratory historical work. And there's a debate about the impact of this uh plague and it's ongoing, I should say that. Um and some scholars argue for a kind of maximalist position of 50%. I think that would have brought this society to a halt. Just logistically speaking. Um and so I I believe in a much more moderate impact. >> And the real impact is what? The tax base shrinks? >> Oh, oh yeah. The tax base would shrink instantly. You wouldn't be able to recruit armies. Um you know, there would be massive social dislocation. Um like what happens in the in the Black Death in Europe in the 14th century. Like we have very good records for what happened to those societies and basically everything that they were doing stopped for a few years until they sort of tried to put things back together again. This does not happen in the 6th century. Um in fact, Justinian is at that time waging war on something like four or five different fronts. If you read the narratives of those wars, there's no pause. There's no there's no impact from the plague on the conduct of those wars. They just continue on. >> Mhm. >> Taxation continues, the courts continue. Like you just don't see it in the narrative. And so I think that there is a much less impact than certainly than 50%, yeah. >> So, this sets the stage for tumultuous 7th century. >> Yeah, you could call it that. >> Yes. So, what what is the legacy of Justinian? Um in terms of how he left the empire leading into the 7th century. >> Well, he left it overextended. So, his successors had to deal with many more problems along many more fronts. Um with fewer military forces concentrated in what we might call the homeland of the Eastern Roman Empire. Um and so that made the the center vulnerable, too. And so you start to get raids into the Balkans and uh you know, the it enters a kind of vicious cycle again. Um Now, not all of this was Justinian's fault. I mean, the plague definitely had some impact. >> [sighs and gasps] >> Um but uh I wouldn't blame everything on his successors as is sometimes done. Like, they mishandled the situation. He Yeah, he left them a very uh difficult situation to deal with. So, speaking of which, let's talk about Heraclius. Uh he didn't make He didn't make your list, either, which is a shocker for a lot of people. Perhaps you can describe the nuance of that, but he took over the Roman Empire on the verge of extinction. Uh Persians at the gates, treasury empty. So, uh maybe first tell the full saga of the Roman-Persian War that threatened the empire's existence. Sure. Well, he he wasn't entirely you know, um free of blame for the situation that he inherited. He was He was in part responsible for it. So, so he doesn't get a pass on that. So, Heraclius is basically a a rebel and a usurper. Uh so uh for various reasons, um Rome and Persia are at war uh starting around 602. Um and the the Persian Shah at this time, Khosrow II, has basically decided on a policy of conquest, not just raiding. Like, I'm going to go in and take your people, take some cattle, and some statues, and take them to, you know, Mesopotamia. He starts what I mean I I think there's some evolution in his thinking and his planning about this, but pretty soon during the 600 and the aughts, he just he he realizes that there's potential for actual permanent territorial gain here, and his army start moving in. And the Roman emperor is this guy called Phocas, who is himself a usurper, uh military background, and he now faces a rebellion by Heraclius, who whose base is in North Africa at this time, like around Carthage. And they have a civil war for 3 years, 608 to 610. >> Mhm. >> That civil war that Heraclius initiates causes a diversion of Roman armies to the civil war away from the Persian front. So, it's a massive gift to the Persians. Plus, a lot of the fighting takes place in Egypt. And Egypt was a province that had up until that point not really been harmed by war, now it is. Right? So, Heraclius's forces, he's not in Egypt, but his backers uh are fighting a civil war in Egypt, so that's province is now, you know, um ravaged in part. The Persians make tremendous gains in the East. Heraclius heads straight for Constantinople during all of this, and to make a long story short, he manages to take Constantinople, execute Phocas, and become emperor. Right? But now he's facing a problem that's much worse than it was when before he started the rebellion. The reason why Heraclius is sort of lionized in so Well, actually, there's a very long tradition of doing this, which goes back to the Middle Ages. In Western Middle Ages, Heraclius was sometimes considered like the first crusader. >> Interesting. >> Yeah, yeah. So, there's all this medieval literature about Heraclius as being a proto-crusader type and and all that. Um for reconquering like Jerusalem from the Persians and restoring the true cross and and and all that. So, he had this kind of aura, and I think his modern um admirers are basically just continuing I mean, they might not know it but they're kind of continuing this very very long tradition of treating Heraclius as this heroic holy warrior. Anyway, uh from my standpoint it's a complete wash. In other words, yes, he does beat the Persians um and he gets like in my view full credit for that though he did it with I think the help of some Turkish allies from Central Asia. These were I think the major component of his success at the very end. But no, no. So he held the Persians off and ultimately defeated them. Yes. And then he loses everything to the Arabs. >> So the Arab conquests are 630s and 640s but the Persian wars 602 to 628. >> Yes. >> So what can be said about this what seems to be a pretty costly war? I guess uh Persians. >> So the war was costly initially only for the Romans. Um the the the Eastern provinces were conquered by Persia. That means Syria, Palestine, Egypt. So that's a loss. >> Mhm. >> You lose all that revenue. And then they start raiding into Asia Minor. >> Yes. >> By the way, this is exactly what the Arabs would do you know, just a couple decades later. They would conquer Syria, Palestine, Egypt and they would start raiding into Asia Minor. So almost like this phase of East Roman history begins already during the Persian invasion. It's just a kind of a prelude. It was in fact the Arabs that would do that for the next few centuries. So Heraclius, it takes him a very long time to get organized. Um in fact, something like 15 years. And it's not entirely clear like what he's doing all this time. Um but he ultimately manages to defeat the Persians by waging these really um spectacular weird campaigns in the East, he decides to strike into the Persian heartland, as it were. Well, first in the Caucasus region, and then he goes into Mesopotamia. So, not to try to defeat their armies that are rampaging around Asia Minor, or even besieging his capital in 626, the the Persians and the Avars, these people from this nomadic warrior group that settled in roughly modern Hungary, they're besieging Constantinople. Heraclius doesn't even go. Um and he's just kind of preparing his armies in the East, and he strikes the Persians right where it hurts. And this now begins to degrade the Persian heartland and their infrastructure. Because remember, both of these empires are going to be in shambles by the time the Arabs come along. And this is what enables the Arabs to conquer them so quickly. I mean, they destroyed each other um in these wars. And eventually Heraclius calls in his Turkish allies, and they go on a a field trip through Mesopotamia, and this causes a coup in in Persia, and Khosrow is killed. >> Is there something to be said, a little bit of texture to the motivations of the different empires and the different groups involved? So, the East Roman Empire, the Persian Empire, and the Islamic Caliphates, were they after conquering, were they after expansion, were they after more like raiding for financial benefits? What was the motivation? >> So, in the past, the Persian shahs basically were interested in raiding. And they also had an interest in manpower. Uh so, all of those Mesopotamian agricultural estates won't till themselves. So, they they were kind of insatiable for agricultural workforces and specialized craftsmen and people like that. So, they they would go into the empire and get them. Um but in this phase, it seems that Khosrow II is taking really to heart the idea that the Persian Empire should really extend to the Mediterranean, as it did in like Achaemenid times, right? In in ancient history, the empire that Alexander conquered. So, it seems that the the Sasanian, this is this dynasty, this Iranian dynasty that's ruling um the Persian Empire. Of course, they were aware of the Achaemenids, but sometimes they would have these claims to reviving the former greatness of the Iranian Empire. >> True. >> So, you know, bathing in the Mediterranean Sea is something that um many Near Eastern monarchs, you know, uh they they did this as a sign of of success. Anyway, for the Romans, it was sheer survival. Um just desperate survival cuz they knew that this was a war that could end the Roman state. >> they're already on the verge of uh being ended. >> Yeah. >> And here they're defensive wars of survival. >> Yeah. So, it's pretty clear that initially the the goal of Arab Muslim warfare is to unify Arabia. That is that all Arabs should be Muslim and should be unified into this um religious kind of state, whatever that the prophet and his successors had created. Now, then they start striking out um into Rome and into Iran. Um it's not entirely clear like why. Now, there are obvious reasons. I mean, we don't it's not like a huge historical mystery why a you know, recently formed successful army will decide to take on two very weak opponents who are on their doorstep. Like, this is not, you know, complicated. >> Yeah, they're pretty effective at military conquest. >> Yeah. But, they're striking both empires from a direction that those empires had never prepared to defend from. Arabia was just not Oh, you might get some occasional raiders. You're never going to get a an army that that's coming out that can potentially conquer you. So, the the defensive orientations are all wrong. >> Mhm. >> And these two empires have gone through this massive war uh that has destabilized them. They're they're low on manpower, low on resources. Uh the outcome is almost kind of inevitable. I don't think there's a great mystery. >> And the effect of that is they stripped away the richest provinces of uh the Roman Empire. >> Yes. Uh Egypt in particular. >> Mhm. >> And so that means now you can't feed Constantinople. Like we talked about the grain from Egypt, right? That came to Constantinople. You don't have that now. And so that means that the population of Constantinople will decline dramatically uh over the next few decades. >> So, how how does the empire rebuild itself? You know, re-stabilize because it's not it doesn't collapse there, right? >> Yes. >> It's stays it survives. There's interesting low points for the empire where it still survives. This is one of them. And that is this interesting as the survival at the top and the flourishing survival at the bottom is also super interesting. So, how do what what what happens? How does it kind of stabilize? >> Very slowly. This is a painful process. And it takes them centuries, you could say. >> Yeah. >> Uh first you got to stop the bleeding. Just try to hold the line. It takes them decades to just to hold the line. Like they get pummeled by the Arabs uh for decades in the 7th century until finally by uh 6 660s, 670 they finally begin to beat them. Uh beat them on land uh and and hold the line uh on the sea. Uh and so we now have an investment in fleets. Eventually you get the Greek fire, which is the flamethrowers. Um and when the Arabs try to take Constantinople, these attempts are defeated like twice. And that ensures the survival of this of the Roman state in some form. >> How were the flamethrowers used? >> Ah, yes, this is an interesting question. We're still the kind of debating that. >> Oh, it's not fully understood. >> Well, it's a state secret. They didn't want this getting out. So, they kept it pretty well. The fact that we're debating it will tell you that they were pretty good at keeping secrets. Um so, possibly through a a pressure valve. >> Mhm. >> Right? So, you have this flammable compound whose preparation and components is also a state secret. Um so, there's specialized as a core of engineers that that prepares this and deploys it. >> Mhm. >> Um and it's possibly through a heated pressurized container with a spigot, let's say, that unleashes this thing up to a nozzle and it's lit uh and basically spews flaming napalm >> [sighs and gasps] >> on other ships. And it will continue to burn even when it's on the water. >> Mhm. >> Right? On the top. So, like you can't like swim away or anything. So, this is a very very destructive weapon. Terrifying. They used it against Vikings, too. This is much later. So, once the Vikings show up >> Mhm. >> Um like when they would raid uh attack Constantinople in the 940s, then again in the 1040s, >> Mhm. >> um yeah, the Romans used uh Greek fire fleets to just incinerate the And that'll teach Vikings Yes. If you're in If you're in that situation, you'd rather serve under the emperors um than attack them. >> And so, this is this is a kind of nuclear weapon level state secret. >> They even had it in a hand grenade form. >> This is a real thing. >> Oh, yes. >> Hand grenade form. >> Yes. So, it's a It's like a clay container uh with the compound and it has like some sort of fuse that you light on the outside and you throw it. Now, you throw it and you can throw it against people and it's not going to be that effective. Maybe you burn a person, whatever. You just wasted a hand grenade for, you know, one person. It's most effective against things like um uh siege engines. >> Mhm. >> Uh so, you you throw that on a wooden frame and, you know, yeah. This is incredible. So, this is one of the things that's finally stabilized >> uh stopped the bleeding uh from a military perspective. >> Yeah, eventually. Now, they remember they pulled the armies back into Asia Minor. So, they're they're beginning to defend and fortify Asia Minor. Now, you have to find ways to pay and support and feed all of these soldiers and this is a whole administrative It's a wrenching administrative readjustment, but they go through it. >> them a long time. Eventually, they emerge with a different kind of strategic logistical system. >> Does it smaller harder core of the empire? >> That's right. Very militarized. >> Very militarized. And then, in 8th century, the the the second Arab siege of Constantinople that somehow fails. >> In the early 8th century, yes. That was the second siege. >> Yeah, the early 8th century. So, why why did it fail? Can you tell the story of that siege? That was really the empire hanging by by a thread. >> Yes, but it happened to have a very competent man in charge. This is Leo III and he's an emperor who has He's a usurper. He's just seized power. They knew that this massive Arab attack was coming. And so, it's quite possible that the Roman elites uh you know, preferred to put someone capable in in power at that moment. The city was very well prepared. I encourage people in the audience to to go and read the the sources that we have for that. Or you you can find many accounts of it online. It was just very very well done. He also had uh Bulgar allies. So, these are the the the Bulgars who had just, you know, crossed the Danube just like just a few years earlier, actually, and settled south of the Danube. Um you know, where eventually, you know, Bulgaria emerged. So, he had Bulgar allies and he used the the Greek fire very very strategically. He used his own fleet. He contained the Arabs to certain places where they kind of starved and um wore them down. Yeah, it was just very well done. >> From a military perspective. >> Well, was there was it the uh the walls, the navy, the weather, the diplomacy, just good luck that helped Constantinople hold? >> see much role for good luck there. I mean, I think he had it all pretty planned out. It was all of the elements that you mentioned. And yeah, he he just deployed them very very uh astutely. Um and went on to rule after that for another 20-some years. And um his son continued. Um they formed a dynasty. It's We call it the Isaurian dynasty, though they were not from Isauria. >> And then from that, the fascinating thing that we mentioned about religion, there was a whole stretch of time marked by intense internal religious conflicts over iconoclasm. Maybe you can clarify this, but uh so iconoclasm courses uh whether sacred images, icons should be venerated or destroyed. This had uh major political and theological stakes. The seemingly smallest things can have the biggest of conflicts. >> Yeah. You've been in an Orthodox church? >> Mhm. >> Have you seen all the [clears throat] icons in the just painting everywhere? >> Mhm. >> Every every space that you can imagine is covered in either icons or images or iconography of saints. >> Mhm. >> All right. That's a result of this. No, that's not what Christian churches used to be like, at least not in Constantinople. Um, but uh, his dynasty basically tried to limit uh, or remove images from churches, and ultimately that policy failed. Um, and the other side that wanted images or liked images uh, let me put it differently, thought that images were not only appropriate, but helpful in the context of Christian worship prevailed. And so gradually the churches began to fill up with icons, lots of icons. Uh, they're almost like, uh, uh, you know, like a a a catchword for Orthodox, uh, you know, devotion. Um, I have icons at home. You you have a little corner in the house, you have a little iconography. >> Mhm. >> Um, anyway, I mean, as a secular Orthodox person, but I I even I can't get away from >> [laughter] >> But that has serious consequences. I mean, there's serious It was a extremely serious internal religious conflict. >> Well, okay, so uh, one asterisk on that. In my research, I did not find uh, popular interest in this matter. Like >> No interest. >> Yeah, I yeah, I don't >> So this isn't overblown >> Yes, his Yes, socially completely overblown. >> Oh, this is one of those things where religious folks will write the story of history. >> That's it. Got it. >> Uh, >> You got it. I could not find there were like a few emperors, and there's some bishops and abbots and monks. Like, I don't know, maybe 100, 200 people are like seriously invested in this, and they're going at it. But these are the people who write those texts. But they never mention, for example, that oh, you know, the the people of Constantinople, they rose up, and they demanded icons or not icons or anything like that. >> Mhm. >> Nah, never. So, in my view, this is one of those controversies that's only a few people really really cared about it and and unfortunately they're the ones who wrote the the the sources. >> So you always have to uh be very careful to consider the sources when you're reading about anything involving religious events. >> Or any kind of events, but certain certain things are more intensely >> uh people are more intensely passionate about and therefore they're going that bias is going to bleed into the way you report the history. >> And not only that, when emperors changed their policy almost everyone fell into line. They switched positions. It's like not yeah, whatever. To put the images, take the images, like whatever. I mean like this isn't they did not see this as central. Some people did and they got very worked up about it. >> [laughter] >> Anyway, but in the end the pro-icon position won and their view just began to fill up the space. Like literally was filling up the churches. And still does. Yeah. >> The thing is we somehow took on the impossible task of uh talking about >> [gasps] >> a >> [laughter] >> thousand >> It'll defeat you, man. It'll defeat you every time. >> I mean there's a reason why you really want to do a thousand-hour podcast on this, right? And as as as you do as there's so many incredible conversations about every single emperor, every single nuance detail of the emperor. It really is a is a thriving uh civilization, is a thriving empire, uh which in it contains so many lessons for even the modern times, but anyway, you have written uh one of the books is Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood, The Rise and Fall of Byzantium 955 AD to the First Crusade. So this period has We talked about survival and some low points. This is a period where once again there's some flourishing. Also, by the 10th century in the Macedonian era, the empire is back. It's wealthy, it's culturally confident, and under emperors like Basil the Second, uh who I think is in your top 10 list. >> Mhm. >> Uh it is expanding again, and uh this is the period you describe in part in your book Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood. So, how did Byzantium go from surviving to expanding again? >> So, I wrote that book in part in order to test myself and see if I could write narrative. >> Mhm. >> So, I hadn't written a history narrative book up until that point. Everything I wrote was sort of analytical, right? Um and it was successful enough that a few years later my editor asked me to write the big history, the new Roman Empire, the thousand of the whole thing. Of the whole thing. >> And so, I set for myself the task of explaining in this book, Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood, a very particular period that was marked by a sudden turn to conquest again after a long period of more or less defensive war. Um 955, there's a new military leadership is appointed, and the Romans go conquering again, especially in Cilicia, northern Syria, and Cyprus and the Caucasus, and then eventually also Bulgaria. And then right afterwards they have this generation plus period of stability and prosperity, and then they're hit by a triple whammy. Uh these are three new attackers. So, it's primarily the Seljuk Turks coming in from the east, some Pechenegs coming down from the north over the Danube, uh and uh the Normans in uh southern Italy. >> Mhm. >> And under the pressure of this three-part attack, um, the you know, this expansionist, um, yeah, what had become more imperial state buckles. >> Mhm. >> Um, and enters another one of these crises, just like the one we described for the uh, 7th century. You know, survives it by the skin of its teeth, and goes on again to rebuild and become prosperous, wealthy, and powerful again, as it does throughout its history. It's these cycles. Um, so I just wanted to describe that iteration of that that process, and that's what I do, um, in in that book. So, >> I think the traditional view uh, in this perfect storm of the 11th century is that it was more to do with the internal sort of moral decay and uh, civilian emperors neglecting the army, this internal stuff. And you make the case that it's the external stuff, the three-pronged attack. Like you said, Normans in the west, the Turkic steppe people in the north, and, um, in Central Asia, the, uh, the Turks in the east. >> Yeah. >> Can you describe that, the three forces, and the case that that was the main reason why it hit a low? >> Well, this is also a methodological problem, right? In other words, when you're looking at a society that suddenly faces a bunch of problems, and you could, you know, reasonably make the case for a kind of decline or a crisis. Is your instinct is your first instinct to suppose that there must be something wrong in the internal mechanisms of that society that, you know, led it to fail? Which is what my field has done, traditionally. Uh, in part because of the decline and fall model, right? Of of this society, we're kind of primed to think that there was something wrong with it. Um, that's it's story. Or is it reasonable to say that a society that does not seem to have any like particularly serious structural flaws is hit by external, you know, challenges that it couldn't realistically have foreseen or prepared for such that you know, it couldn't cope with them and as I said, buckled. And I think that's what happened. I think that's the the main narrative. Not that there weren't problems, there were. Um but no state can medieval or ancient can realistically survive the simultaneous attack of three very different kinds of enemies. The Normans who are like these knights like a new type of Western warfare that is just all about, you know, grinding the enemy to bits. Um but who are also terrorists. Like they're straight-up terrorists. >> Normans are fascinating cuz I mean, there's there's a Viking component to it. Normans. >> Yeah. That's a whole Yeah. >> So they have they have three different kinds of enemies. >> Yes. The Pechenegs who's you know, a totally different type of you know, probably mostly nomadic horsemen and then the Seljuk Turks um who are also mostly nomadic horsemen but who are coming in from Central Asia with vast reserves of manpower behind them. In fact either intending to or as it happens affecting a demographic change in not just demographic but ecological too because they basically when they move into Asia Minor, they're transforming or terraforming agricultural land into pasturage. >> Mhm. >> And and they're just backed by reserves of manpower that um no other enemy of the empire has had yet. >> Mhm. >> Uh so, yeah, how do you how do you cope with these situations? I mean, they're it's very very difficult and it's a wonder that they survived it at all. Now, they also have internal problems. I'm not going to sort of try to sweep these under the the the rug, right? Um in particular, we're seeing the end of the Macedonian dynasty. Um this is a dynasty that had lasted for about two centuries. And this has a kind of politically destabilizing effect. New emperors, and there are a lot of like childless old men in this period, are relatively insecure. They don't have this kind of a dynastic blitz behind them. And so, they're tending to to buy a lot of political support, like hand out these exemptions, give cash, you know, titles to anyone who will support them. And this, of course, causes a budget problem. Like, they don't have enough money after a while. Then, they have to start raising all of these armies to deal with all of these problems, and that just increases the the pressure on the budget. And so, there is an internal problem as well. Yeah. >> So, you mentioned this loop of thriving and then having to survive, surviving that happens a few times throughout the history of the Roman Empire. It seems that societies in general oscillate in that way. Is there something particular you could say about uh the oscillations, the loops that the Roman Empire goes through? >> Yes. Now, I don't think this is an oscillation. At least, that's not how I think of it in my own mind. Um I So, as I explained, the the prices that this this polity, this state, this society that it undergoes are dis- they're discrete number of them. I can I can tell you what they are, and we've we've talked about most of them so far. They don't last very long. And they are all sudden um challenges that appear from the outside. In other words, they're exogenous shocks um that they can't really have prepared for. Uh these shocks uh cause massive territorial loss which requires adjustment. Right? But they don't last that long. In other words, the Romans almost always at some point figure out how to hold a line how to consolidate their position, regroup and put their economy and their society back on a trajectory of revival, regrowth um and eventual reconquest. Always. Every single time except the last time. Right? Um and for me this poses the following kind of dilemma uh which I can answer. And the dilemma is should we define the society by these brief crises of exogenous shocks or should we define it by the centuries-long sometimes periods of regrowth, consolidation um and and stabilization uh which are endogenous. >> Mhm. >> Nobody came from the outside to help them rebuild. >> Mhm. >> Uh and my answer is unequivocally the latter. So I see this as a society whose internal organization primes it to stabilize and embark on steady growth. Slow and gradual but steady. Um and and that's what I would like my field to explain more and I'm going to try to do so in the book I mentioned um that I'm writing on like the longevity or the resilience of this society and not try to um center the crises which I see as being from the outside. Like these aren't Of course they're part of its story but they're not coming from it. What's coming from it is the stability and I think that's the more interesting part of this society. >> Yeah, so the you know, these peak to peak histories as you could think of them, they miss the machinery in the valleys, institutions, incentives, daily life, all of these things, the politics, the religion. They have a bunch of revisionist history ideas. In your work, you're challenging the field. >> Yes, you could say that. >> In the best possible way. Uh so just to linger on it, what what are some of the things that historians miss? So this is a big one, right? That you're speaking to, which is like focusing too many too much on specific moments versus on the broad structural underpinnings of of an empire, of a society. >> Right, so what you alluded to there is a critique of what we might call short histories of Byzantium, which is a kind of genre of a book. >> Mhm. >> Right? Uh this isn't necessarily like what my other revisionist ideas are about. The more important ones are things like the monarchical republic that we talked about. In other words, that that there's actually a broader spectrum of partici- political participation. >> Mhm. >> Um that emperors are having to look over their shoulders all the time. That there is a deeper matrix of Roman republican thought there. Like that's one revisionist idea. Another one is about Roman identity, just like who are these people? And no, they are Romans, and in fact, it's kind of a an ethnic identity after a certain point. Um like those kinds of ideas. The criticism of the peak to peak um kinds of books. So if you're trying to condense 1,200 years into 120 pages or even a you know, even 200 pages, there's no way to do so realistically um and give a sense of the whole terrain. In other words, what these books do is they go they jump from from highlight to highlight. And these highlights are sometimes things like, you know, everything Justinian did because it's so extravagant to the crises. >> Mhm. >> The crises are of course dramatic moments that you can't skip. Um and you can't get a sense from these books as to how all of this is interconnected in in the valleys, right? In the cracks, down there. Like what what are the mechanisms that are connecting these peaks together? And that's how I tried to write the big history, the new Roman Empire. Is to tell a story by casting light in those darker places. That is to show how especially institutions and ideologies sort of tie um you know, people's lives together. Um that is tie people to institutions and to the broader history that surrounds them. Um so that the reader can get a sense when I'm when I'm recounting specific events or either of you know, greatness or of success or of failure, that they can understand roughly why these things are happening, right? Look, there's no perfect answer. Um a short book will just not tell you these things. A long book, well, is a long book. >> Well, in some sense, I mean this in this even in this very conversation, I think we did a pretty good job of looking at the valleys, at the structure of the institutions. And that gives you a sense of the whole underpinnings. And so it's it's a beautiful it's a beautiful way to see history, especially for societies have lasted as long as as the as the East Roman Empire has. >> But it did take us a few hours. >> Yes. You're right. But it it it requires that you that you actually spend some time to look in there. Yeah. Yeah. >> What's what's a few hours among friends? >> that's I I agree. >> [laughter] >> Uh So zooming out and asking once again the old uh getting a little close to last call at a bar and ask you the big question. We asked it before about the collapse of the West uh Roman Empire. When did the decline of the East Roman Empire begin for you? Throughout this loops, when if you were to predict uh would you be able to say where this is going to be over? And what led to uh that decline and and the collapse? So, of course, the collapse is in um finally in 1453 AD. >> Right. That's actually a very good question. In other words, um not looking at all of the previous crises that caused loss of territory, like, you know, lose Egypt, you lose Syria, you lose Palestine, you lose Eastern Asia Minor, you right? But at what point could you say there's no coming back from this, right? I would say early 14th century. Somewhere between 1300 and 1350. The sources of resilience begin to dry up. And um you have a number of setbacks. They lose Asia Minor to the Turks by 1300, roughly. Which means that you can now no longer draw upon the two wings, as it were. Um the the the European side and the Asian side, which they could always do. They're confined to Europe. And then you have a series of civil wars. You have the Serbian expansion. Um and you have the um the Black Death. And they never recover from that. In 1300, you you think of this you look at it and you think that's a tiny little Balkan state. >> Mhm. >> Okay, it goes from Constantinople to the Adriatic in this this sort of ribbon, right? This this corridor that just stretches across the Balkans. And yet it's not that much smaller than England. And has about as much if not more revenue because they're still able to raise cash because taxes. Right? So, the emperor is still able to pull in a lot of gold. Um and his territory is not you know, completely insignificant. It's not what it, you know, the Roman Empire used to be. But I don't think that it's completely lost. Then they have some civil wars. Then one emp- a rebel makes a deal with the Serbs, surrenders half that territory. Okay, after that, game over. What's surprising is it takes the Turks that long. 1453, that's another century, right? Um it didn't need to be. It looks like they might have had it wrapped up like 50 years after you know, like by 1400. Uh but then accidental events happened. This is Timur, Tamerlane comes from Central Asia, trounces the Turks, breaks up their empire. So, they go into a cycle of, you know, rebuilding. And so, that's why it takes another 50 years. Anyway. But I'd say by the 1340s, game over. >> [snorts] >> And so, why did it collapse? What are the things in the ground when you zoom out the thing that ate away at the I like this term sources of resilience. >> Oh, foreign invasions. There's no question. >> It's just invasions. >> It's foreign invasions. Those which they could not cope with. They coped with lots of them. But you know, all it takes is to lose to one and you lose some part of your territory. And if you keep losing enough you won't have anything to fall back on. And that's what happens. >> So, really, you know, if there's no significant external invasions the East Roman Empire, the fundamentals, the the taxation system the way the the policies were developed, the way the politics was done, the way the representation was done, all of that, this empire could have lasted for another thousand years. >> Absolutely. I'm absolutely convinced of this because um you never see movements to split away um that is there's no separatist movements at least not on the part of any Roman provincials. There's one separatist movement which is Bulgaria. We mentioned Bulgaria was conquered, right, in 1018. It It There's a couple of independentist movements rebellions um eventually one succeeds in 1185. So, just under two centuries. So, Bulgaria is the only part of this empire that actively seeks to break away and does so. But for the rest of the 1200 years you you don't find provincials wanting to leave this system. However much they complain about the taxes, they don't want to leave and they make no move to do so. You also never have a moment when um the center loses its ability to tax its territories. Right? You don't have like widespread peasant uprisings or province or right agricultural rebellions or these kinds of things. Um which happens in every other one of these empires. They also never decide to partition it. Mhm. The Franks partition theirs, right? Like after Charlemagne. Um no. There are no like Roman warlords that try to carve out piece of the territory for themselves and rule it independent. Nope, that doesn't happen either. So, if you're looking at the kinds of factors that cause states to fail, fragment, you know, become ungovernable, these never happen. >> This is so incredible. This is truly incredible. In the history of human civilization just an incredible study of what human societies can can form. So, so what what what if what what are the whys? Why? Why? Why was it so stable? >> look. There are other stable like for example uh the the British monarchy. That's been around for quite a while, right? Uh states like Portugal, Japan. They have one thing in common. They're all tucked away at the edges. Like they're off they're little islands or whatever. They're not like, right? We're talking about a society that was right in the middle of one of the main corridors of empire building and new religions in the world. This is the most dangerous neighborhood, right, that you can possibly live in. Yeah. So, no wonder it didn't survive. Like it would have been extraordinary if it had. But absent those forces I don't see any for any uh forces of internal decomposition that would have imperiled it, you know, significantly. >> So, what I mean we've talked about a lot of it, but what just like return to it. Why was there no internal sources of decomposition? Like why why did it work so well? Why did the people feel represented? Yes, they By the way, you talked about how they complain about the taxes, which is one of the signs of a healthy society. So, we It's like uh complaining about the weather. The fact that you're complaining about the taxes actually means that you're happy with the taxes kind of counterintuitively. It's not too bad. It's complaining is part of the system. Anyway, but why? Why why why did it work so well? Why did everybody get along? Feel represented? No, not get along not in a in a silly way. I mean sufficiently to where they wouldn't warlords wouldn't rise and break apart the system and or if there was those kinds of forces they would come back together. Yeah. Like why is it such a great self-healing system? >> So, you're exactly right. So, sufficient is the key word. We don't want to idealize this, right? These aren't like they're not just dancing in the streets holding hands and right? It's so even when it comes to the tax system, they are complaining all the time. Of course, they're doing so because they know that complaining gets you things. There's no disincentive to complaining. You might not get what you want or you might get it, but you know, no harm will come to you. So um they're complaining all the time. They have all of these civil wars. They're like, okay. Um so uh I I think I would give you a two-part answer so really quickly as to why this held together so well. First is that an extraordinary effort was made by the authorities to persuade their subjects that they were ruling on their behalf and I think for the most part actually tended to do so. And the second is that it had a very tightly unified identity as Roman and as Orthodox. In other words, for the most most time they knew that they were surrounded by enemies who were not those things and they did not want to live under the power of non-Romans and non-Christian people. And so those two factors combined, I think, gave everybody reason to hold it together. The alternatives were worse. >> Yeah, I mean that's a really brilliant summary and I think we should mention that both the rhetoric and the action are important. I think you've articulated that rhetoric is really powerful. Like stating over and over and over >> Yeah. >> that you represent the people that you're you're acting on behalf of the people and doing the action, but it's not enough to actually do the action. You would think that's all Machiavelli says that's the only thing that matters. Then no, it's that the rhetoric actually has a lot of power because it is a uniting idea and ideal that propagates through time and it it pacifies you. It makes you puts you at peace. Rhetoric is important. >> I'll I'll you an example um as a academic administrator, right? I mean, I was a chair of department, uh, for years and years. There's a difference between a dean who says, um, "Sorry, bad budget situation. Uh, we're just going to have to cut your programs." on the one hand, and a dean who says, "I am fully on board with what you're trying to accomplish with these programs. I am a defender of the humanities. Unfortunately, we have this budget situation and we're going to have to cut some of the programs, but I assure you the moment I'm in this with you together, the moment we find the funds, we will restore them." Those two just rhetorical strategies, that they're aiming at the same practical outcome, will produce very different levels of compliance, right? And consensus. >> And I should say that there's subtlety there. The best rhetoric in the in that context, and maybe in the East Roman Empire, is you you also have to believe it. >> Yes, it has to be credible. You can't just say it and then not do it. >> one of the things I've learned about humans, just having doing this little podcast, is that it people could like the best way to say a thing, a powerful thing, is to really believe it. And so like this is clearly one of the things that made, uh, the the Roman Empire work is doing the action is the best way to make the rhetoric powerful and effective. >> Yeah. This is sort of what Aristotle says about tyrants. In the politics, Aristotle's giving essentially advice to tyrants on how to protect themselves because tyrants are usually hated and are killed in coups, right? Um, and he says, "So, how are you you know, essentially, how do you manage to secure yourself, uh, when you're a tyrant? Well, uh, you know, you can start uh, by maybe you know, obeying the laws or making sure that your subjects obey the laws and you know, maybe work for the interest of your essentially he's telling them that kind of become benevolent kings. Just and the best way to persuade your subjects that you're legitimate benevolent kings is to be that. >> Yeah. >> So what from all of this from this 2200 year history of the Roman Empire what lessons can we draw for modern times? Now we're sitting in America let's see young Empire. I know we're not calling it an Empire but you know >> Lots of people are calling it an Empire. I thought it was sort of taboo. Yeah, in the 20th century it was like is America an Empire or not but like I think since the Iraq War like since 2003 I I've seen at least very casual uses of America and Empire in the same you know, sentence without any kind of hand-wringing. >> Is it ever called that in academic setting? >> Yes. >> I mean it's technically I guess you could say >> given given the expanse of the military bases and and the the military might and the way that represents itself in the geopolitical context. >> There are books published all the time that unironically discuss America as an Empire in various ways. Yeah, no. >> By the way both positive and negative. So when you're saying a positive thing about America calling it an Empire and when you're saying to criticize America you call it an Empire. >> Yeah, you're right. Yeah, I mean most academic books aren't trying to do like either they're just trying to analyze the situation. >> Yeah. >> What lessons about um about representing the people about flourishing about stability can we draw? >> I will say that um just drawing on what we were talking about a moment ago that investing in institutions that work for the majority of your subjects, even if indirectly, like they have to pay a cost for them, but you have to explain to them why they're paying that cost, uh is to the benefit of the ruling classes as well. Uh because you're you're ideally you're thinking about long-term success and not just your own short-term, you know, gain. And I think that's what the society tends to do well. You know, the Romans generally, you know, how they built roads for the the the centuries and the millennia, they they built institutions, too. You know, one of the institutions they built was like the Christian church. Like they built things to last. Um and I think that's a that's a good lesson beyond even the roads. I think institutions that explain, you know, to people why they exist, um is uh yeah, I think we could uh we could use some of that. >> And also the first point you made about the East Roman Empire, I think you've uh said that US foreign policy sometimes has a quite a large gap between the rhetoric and the um in modern times, the rhetoric and the action. >> Yeah. >> And so this to the Machiavellian's point, that we want to maybe narrow that gap for successful empire, for successful nation, the rhetoric has to match the action. >> Yes. >> And it doesn't quite for some of the foreign policy uh engagements in the world. >> So, in the context of the society I study, let's say the army is the single largest expense is doing pretty much what the emperor say that it's doing, which is protecting its subjects. That's actually what it's doing most of the time. Not all the time. So, for example, emperors will sometimes take the armies out on a raid or an expedition, you know, crack some skulls, gather some plunder, come back, and this is done to glorify the emperor. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, this this does happen. Uh but for the most part, they're doing that, not much else. And actually in pre-modern context, it's very difficult uh to operate like, you know, shadow foreign policies and things like this. Like, it's just not part of the it's not not not in the cards. Uh but America in particular has such a history of proclaiming the loftiest goals. It just sometimes just you know, breathtakingly implausible. >> Plus the incredible engineering behind the military-industrial complex. So, America's very good at creating >> Yeah. >> the flamethrowers. >> Yes. >> The the technologies of war. And so, the lofty goals combined with just a lot of profit that could be made on the technologies of war, creates a very difficult situation to navigate where the gap naturally widens. >> I don't think most of the world even believes, you know, what American leaders say their goals are, especially when it comes to like war. Like, spreading democracy, not really. I I remember when they were trying to convince me us that the some the the invasion of Afghanistan was a feminist war. >> Oh, that was a thing, huh? >> Oh, yes. They were to liberate the women from the burkas or whatever, and the the news was just flooded with like how terrible women have it in Afghanistan. It's like, you're really trying to persuade me that that's why you're sending armed force like >> [sighs and gasps] >> Uh anyway, >> I think there's a lot a lot of wake-up calls about the war in Afghanistan and Iraq where people realized that there is that gap between the rhetoric and the action. And I mean, that's how uh because of a lot of people waking up to that, they they create pressure on the government to close the gap, and that's how we kind of navigate this complicated world but it's a costly one. I mean these these were extremely costly wars. >> Yes. >> On every front, on every measure. >> Yep, but the same lesson was learned in like the Vietnam War. And that was such a disaster that essentially they had to switch to abandon the conscript army, switch to a professional army. And like it took them so long to be able to like wage, you know, these empire wars again because of the sheer damage that the Vietnam War did to the credibility of the military leadership in the country, right? This never happens in like this does not happen in in Constantinople. I I mean you can lose a you can be criticized for losing a war. That's that's one thing, right? But that you're using the army to do some like, >> Some of this does have to do with the the functioning of uh of how democracy works. The the temporary nature of the leaderships and that they're very short-sided because of the nature of the of the elected position of the executive. I mean that's what we're trying to figure out as a human civilization, how to do this in this particular case, the democracy thing. >> There's no right answer and by the way, I don't want to be ruled by kings or monarchs or emperors either. So it's like I wouldn't necessarily support that. I'm I'm not advocating here for anything. I'm just trying to explain. But you're exactly right. Um you know, we we want democracy, we want leaders whom we can eject every four or five years, which includes sometimes they're they're, you know, teams of experts and policy designers and whatever. And that comes at a cost, too. >> So you you said that, you know, the Roman Empire, maybe ancient Greece, maybe the uh societies before that and now societies after that, the society we live in, are very different. And so the lessons of history, you have to be careful doing so. But are there things that are the same? With us humans. So for everything you've studied across hundreds of years and centuries, are there aspects of human nature that kind of persist? >> So look, intellectually, I have gone through um periods when like when I was a grad student, um it was um you know, this was postmodernism, what we might call loosely, was kind of alive and well and not had not yet been kicked in the pants. >> [snorts] >> Um it was very common to find colleagues who did not believe that there was such a thing as, let's say, human nature. In other words, that let's say the parameters of human psychology are, you know, yes, there's considerable variation, but they're within a certain set of, you know, you know, norms. Like it's not we're not going to behave like um like different species. Um and and that they did not believe that there was such a thing. In other words, that all of human history is essentially a series of incommensurate slices of difference. Right? That you just couldn't go from one to the next and I think it's a very problematic view for all kinds of reasons. Like how how small do you slice these slices? I mean it And um you know, I'm with Thucydides on this one. Um who says that, you know, more or less human beings are going to more or less they're they're going to be act, right? They're they love and they hate and they have ambitions and they're incompetent and you know, you find the whole range of, you know, the whole gamut of diversity pretty much in every any group of of about 20 or 30 people, you're going to find the same kinds of types. Now, culture then comes in and, you know, tweaks things in all kinds of weird ways and that's as a historian what I'd like to study. I'd like just how the the the culture will modify will set the dials, right? >> Mhm. >> But that the dials go from 1 to 10 most people is like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so." >> But every once in a while there'll be a few uh a few folks who come along whether it's Steve Jobs or Wozniak or some guy with a weird mustache or uh with a funny hat and those can turn the tides of history. >> I think so. Occasionally, yes. >> But they're just ultra skilled at the right time at the right moment. >> Oh, I believe that, too. Oh, yeah. In other words, I don't I also don't think that that cultural systems or ideologies are so effectively totalitarian that they sort of colonize the mind of every person and so everyone in a culture is just like a clone. No, you you encounter this sometimes in in historical scholarship. >> Mhm. >> And no, I think people can sometimes just think for themselves or they can think outside the box and they can do all kinds of things and and I always want to keep my mind open to that possibility when I'm encountering historical agents. >> Yeah. >> So, just because you've seen this grand history I apologize for the ridiculous question, but if we look at the entirety of Earth and we fast forward a million years from now >> Oof. >> and the and the history of life on Earth is written do you think we're at the very beginning of human history or is are we in the middle or are we close to the end? >> A million years from now? Um I mean, I can't uh project or predict anything like a year from now. And I've I've become actually increasingly skeptical that I can do so, at least. Um however, so I don't know about beginning, middle, and end. Um I it would it's easier to think in terms of like like numbered phases. Like significantly different phases of human history. And I would say we're probably in the third. I think there've only been three phases. Uh the first one being sort of hunter-gatherer period, which that lasted for the majority of human history so far, right? Then there's the agricultural revolution, basically. Um and this is when you start to produce surpluses that create more complex societies. And we're now living through a a technological but in first industrial now, >> Yeah, you can throw it all in the same bucket, industrial technological. >> industrial technological, which is modifying the parameters of what it is that human beings can do and possibly be. >> Mhm. >> And who knows where this will go, but I see these as um very distinct um in in many ways. It's all human beings, but very different contexts. >> almost modifying themselves. So, the question is is there a fourth? Is there going to be a fourth? >> sure there will be. >> And what does that look like? And is it when they look back at the third, would they still see us as the same as them? Or would it be something completely different? >> Oh, no. I I mean, we look back at the, you know, Romans or the Greeks or like any period in history, and we like, "Yeah, no, I I see what you're doing there. You're doing it with the you know, the technological capabilities that you had at that time. You're doing it with the materials that you had, but I see what you're doing." Yeah. You've got You've got families and you've got armies and you've got, you know, you bury your dead and you you know, >> But now we're increasingly actually having the tools and technology to modify the like deeply modify what it means to be human. Genetic engineering, brain-computer interfaces, as we understand the brain more we can modify things, expand completely. Plus artificial intelligence it can expand the the the the the knowledge base and the intelligence of the human mind unless we figure out the human mind is actually incredibly special to the degree where it's at least with the tools we have this century we cannot accomplish we cannot achieve the level of intelligence that general intelligence that humans have or one of these we might figure out in stage four of this long history is that the thing that makes humans special is not intelligence it's not any of the things we kind of value each other by it's actually consciousness. And consciousness is the thing that is very difficult to engineer. So that's the common thing from the hunter-gatherers to before the industrial revolution and after is we're still the same we still feel like something to be alive and that's maybe a an important component of what makes us fall in love with each other or fear each other or suffer suffer and all the full range of the human condition the human experience maybe even to technology cannot cannot replicate that cannot modify that. Maybe that's what we learn. Or very possibly we destroy this whole thing. Cuz now for the first time in human history we have the tools unfortunately to destroy everything. >> This is all very eloquent. I mean after so many hours of my rambling about the medieval Roman Empire I'm I'm impressed. >> Okay. What gives you hope about this whole thing? About the future of human civilization? >> Look there are a lot of challenges right that that we that we face and we talk about them a lot. As a historian I see other periods that were far far more difficult when people could have far more easily have given up hope and sometimes did. Um but I don't think we're in one of those. Like there there's some major issues like the uncertain future of technologies, what they might do, exactly what you were talking about. I think they're solvable problems to a certain degree. Like if we can rein in some elites, a lot of these problems can be fixed and that's not like a super difficult. I mean it's difficult but it's not like impossible. Look, um so I grew up during the Cold War. Let's just take the '80s for example. And in the '80s, like there was a pervasive sense that nuclear war could happen at any time and just annihilate everything and we lived under that. If you look at the popular culture of the '80s, it's like all like upbeat and cheerful and naive and like there's just no correlation. And then you move into the '90s and the Cold War is over and everyone was all depressed. The music gets all like whiny and I was like, "What happened?" There's just no correlation. Anyway, I just think that that there's a pervasive sense of hopelessness or, you know, uh despair doesn't always match with like if you look at the situation objectively. I mean, yeah, it's it it can be pretty bad. I but there's so much that's happening that that is good all the time. So >> I think this period of human history will be cuz we've talked about the ups and downs of the Roman Empire. I think unquestionably this period in history, the 20th the the late 20th century and the 21st century will will be seen as a flourishing of humans. So, if we actually just wake up >> Yeah. >> it's like what everything around us by most measures of human flourishing we're doing pretty good. >> The amount of like sheer misery is probably objectively decreasing every year. Now, you know, we're also creating problems, yes. That will cause misery down the road, yeah. Yes, but overall, I don't see a a reason to despair and not have hope. >> Yeah, we're doing okay. >> We can do better. Let's do better. >> [laughter] >> Um >> That's the >> But, yeah. Yeah. >> Let's do better. Well, Anthony, this was an incredible conversation. Thank you for all the uh amazing work you do and for the whirlwind journey through such a fascinating part of human history. Uh this was fun. Thank you for talking today. >> It was a pleasure to be here and thank you for not just for inviting me. I mean, this is probably the the the largest audience, you know, I've I've ever spoken to. Uh but, also just for giving my my field and this this civilization that I study the opportunity to be seen and heard from more people. I think that's very important. You've You've done a real service here. So, I want to thank you for that. >> Thank you. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Anthony Kaldellis. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, let me leave you with some words from Benjamin Franklin. A great empire, like a great cake, is most easily diminished at the edges. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.