The Fall Of The Roman Republic With Barry Strauss

Have you ever read Walker Percy's the movie goer? >> Yes, but a long long time ago. >> I was rereading it recently and there's this line in it where you know she says like the age of Kos is gone or something or the last of the Kos. Anyways, I was thinking about it because what was so funny to me about that is like I mean Ko, it's not like he lived in a shining moment in the Roman Empire. Like it w he he's literally the last of of that, right? Like >> he literally watches the republic fall. >> But also, I just took a special humor in it in that Ko the Elder was concerned that the end of Rome was the introduction of philosophy, the thing we now celebrate as the defining achievement of these civilizations. I mean, I hate to confess it, but I'm not the world's biggest fan of Kada the Younger. >> Tell me why. >> Because I think that he didn't understand the need for compromise. >> Yes. >> And uh he did not have the strain of pragmatism, which was one of the things that made the Romans great. >> Yeah. >> Uh and uh you know, Caesar had a lot to do with bringing on the civil war, but Ko had a lot to do with it as well. >> Yes. Do you think that he was a mediocre politician or do you think he was too principled and clean for the world of politics or is it somewhere in the middle? >> I leaned towards princ too principled and clean for the world of politics but that makes him a mediocre politician. >> Right. You know he wasn't he didn't he wasn't good at the job. He thought that uh all the problems could go away. All they had to do was get rid of Caesar and everything would be fine. >> Yes. >> But that wasn't true. Yeah. >> I mean Rome faced >> some fundamental problems. And the thing about the Caesars and Pompies of this world is that although the their solutions for these problems were not the solutions that were ideal, at least they recognize the problems. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like he didn't understand that actually the job of the politician is to compromise on your principles. >> Yes. So my big line which I repeat adnauseium comes from um this great novel, The Leopard. And uh it you know it's a novel about revolution in Sicily in 1860. And the main character is this old aristocrat who doesn't want to change. Yeah. And he doesn't have any children of his own, but he's very devoted to his nephew. And his nephew comes and shocks him and says, "I'm going to join the revolution." And the old guy says, "How can you do that?" >> And he says, "Uncle, you have to understand, if we want things to stay the same, everything has to change." >> Yes. This is an Italian novelist, right? >> Absolutely. This is Queen Elizabeth's motto. Queen Elizabeth II. [clears throat] That is her motto in the royal household that if things are going to stay the same, things are going to have to change. >> She was a wise woman. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Uh I knew there was a reason I liked her. But I I think that's absolutely true. I mean, it's a little bit cynical. Uh but I think it's it's absolutely true. I mean, I I think that what a politician has to do is to first of all assess his or her society and say what are the strengths? what are the things that really what are the core values that we really have to keep then say okay but we can't have everything we want what are the things we're going to compromise on and we can't have everything we want because the world is always changing >> um and so I think that a wise politician understands that >> and isn't there also a difference which I feel like Ko maybe failed to understand which is the job of the politician in in the doing of politics is to compromise on principles because not everyone gets what they Yes. >> But then the job of the public official >> is to be unsuable from their personal uh principles. So Kato refusing to take bribes or to decide to run the treasury, you know, honestly, >> that is that's good principles. >> And then hey, um >> Pompy coming to you and proposing an alliance even if you find him personally distasteful. Uh if that prevents Caesar from bringing him into his clutches, right, that's a great compromise. >> I agree. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a really good example. And so that that tells us both the strengths of Ko, what's admirable about him and the weaknesses of Ko? >> Where does Cicero, if we have Caesar on one end, Ko on the other? Is Cicero in the middle, is he getting the mean right or is he too principled or not principled enough to be a good politician? I think he's a better politician than than Kato, but I think that where he fails is that he too didn't understand the impossibility of keeping the republic the way that it was. >> I mean, the way I see it here, we have Rome, which has is now ruling somewhat like 50 million people. Yeah. >> And the idea that you can have a charm circle of a few families in and around the city of Rome ruling this permanently Yeah. without opening the doors to outsiders, that's a non-starter. Yeah, >> that's a no-go. And Pompy and Caesar both understood that. Uh whereas Ko and Cicero did not. And I think that's that's what's so problematic about them. >> Yeah. Yeah. Cicero I when I read about them, I I at least admire Ko even if he's frustrating. >> Yeah. >> And then >> with Cicero there, I always have had this sense. It's like he he knew better or he could have done better. Like there there's something disappointing about Cicero in a different way. You know, he's sort of always >> checking the checking the wind. You know, you wish he was you wish he was more heroic and then it's almost like he wastes himself on the wrong crisis. >> Yeah, I know what you mean. But he was not made that way. You know, he wasn't he was a man of courage and a man of principle. Certainly took a lot of courage for him to stand up to Anthony. the way that he did, but he was in a way he was too clever by half and he was vain. I mean, he allowed uh Octavian to take him in. >> Yeah. >> He thought that he was using Octavian yet Octavian was using him >> and he also made the mistake of not being able to keep his mouth shut and uh the word got back to Octavian. So, I mean, what a wonderful speaker, what a fantastic orator, what eloquence uh and a wonderful thinker as well >> and how timeless the themes are, right? the the politician who compromises too much, the the politician who doesn't compromise, >> the the the ambitions getting in the way, the telling themselves that they're using the figure when actually the figure is using them. Like just the themes are torn from today's headlines. >> I agree. And Cicero's letters, I mean, they're my favorite. I mean, just what amazing amazing documents they are. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. My favorite story about Cicero is I forget who it was, but some some person had just sort of performed this artistic [ __ ] you to to Caesar's face. >> Cicero, you know, congratulating him after says, you know, come sit next to me, you know, and the man says, "Oh, I'm surprised there's room. I you always take up two stools." [laughter] meaning that he he never picks a side and that that he had trouble he had trouble sort of drawing the line which obviously Ko did not >> right >> but there's sort of a vice in both directions >> yeah my favorite story from Cicero is from the letter to Attacus where he described Caesar's visit to his villa he says at the end he's not the kind of guy to whom you'd say come back again soon [laughter] yeah and Cicero at least there was a consistency for Ko with principles. Yes. Except for that whole weird thing with his wife. Uh yes. >> Uh but Cicero seems to like the philosophy and like the the the image of the stoic, but then also really likes being rich and powerful and important, >> right? Yes. Yes. So, so maybe for people who have no idea what we're talking about, walk us through in broad strokes how it goes sideways. Why does the Republic fall? Okay. >> And sort of who are the players there? >> Sure. I mean it's a long story first of all as you know uh and it takes about a century for the republic to fall. Yeah. >> Uh but to make a short a long story short I think it has to do with the rupture in what colleagues of mine called the civic bargain. And the civic bargain is that uh Roman citizens would serve in the military. Uh they defend the country, then they go back to their farm and they would enjoy a middle class existence on a modestsized farm and they would also be able to participate in politics. It wasn't a democracy, but there were elections and ordinary people had a vote. And it all starts to go sideways as a result of the wars that Rome fought in the 3rd and 2nd centuries. uh the wars that really you know squeeze these people uh to the pipsqueak. Um uh many of them die, many of them lose their farms. At the same time, Rome is becoming a major major slave power and Italy is becoming a slave society. Uh and the fat cats are grabbing up all the public land that ordinary uh Romans would need to pasture their herds on. >> So we see people moving to the city of Rome because they can't make it on the farm anymore. We see people losing their farms. We see people going into debt. And the net net is it this really affects the Roman military because the Romans staunchly believe that you could not arm poor people cuz if you armed poor people, they could turn on you. And they also thought that poor people were poor. I mean unfairly. They thought that poor people were poor because they lacked virtue and they just didn't have the right stuff. Yeah. Uh so suddenly there's not enough people who can meet the military the property qualification to go into the military. A Roman politician, well two Roman politicians, the Grai brothers try to do something about it by redistributing public land and getting the wealthy to give up this land and to share it with the poor so that you can bring potential Roman soldiers back up to speed where they can meet the property qualification. >> But the first moral panic about socialism. >> Yes. Yeah. [laughter] In a way, yes, you could say that. So, uh, this leads to a violent opposition. I mean, literally violent opposition. And there are lynch squads put together by senators to kill each of these brothers in turn and to uh make these reforms more abundant. They're also afraid, the the old guard was afraid that as a result of this uh that the Grai brothers would have unassailable political popularity. So Rome's in a dither about what to do or in a tizzy about what to do and ultimately when they face a challenge from Celtic invaders at the end of the second century uh or they also have a crisis in the war in North Africa uh what they're forced to do they constantly have to lower the property qualification accepting poorer and poorer men into the military. Uh and finally I say no more property qualification. Anyone can become uh a any citizen can become a Roman soldier. And so you have these poor people who go in the military and their commanders say you know fight for me fight for Rome. And they're saying well why? And they're saying because uh at the end of the rainbow there will be a pot of gold and the pot of gold will be that we will I will I will get you land. They would settle the soldiers in these different kind of colonies and areas of that they'd conquered, right? >> Eventually, yeah, but not quite yet. In this period, they're settling them in Italy, >> uh, which means they have to get land for them, which often means they have to take land away from somebody else, right? So, they're sewing the seeds for civil war. And what's happening is now ordinary Romans instead of being loyal to SPQAR, instead of being loyal to Senatus Qu Roman, was the Senate and the Roman people, they're now loyal to their commander. You know, I'm Marius's guy. I'm Sullah's guy. So they're not really loyal to the republic per se anymore, but but to the guy who represents the republic to them. So citizenship has really changed its meaning and Rome is in danger of becoming a military dictatorship. >> [gasps] >> So as you know there's a long and complicated uh civil war a set of civil wars between Marius and Sullah and when Marius dies between his partisans and Sullah wins very brutal war he is on the side of the conservatives the old guard the people who call themselves the best men whereas the other side of the people who call themselves the men of the people >> we might call them populist is a little misleading but it's close uh to uh what they are And Sullah comes in and makes himself dictator kind of twisting the meaning of an old Roman institution that's supposed to be temporary. He's dictator with uh without any uh time limit on it. And he uh reforms the constitution to try to turn the clock back before you had all these populists to try to make Rome back to the conservative way it was before. But he steps down after a year. Probably he was ill because he dies shortly after that. And the republic is back in business, but slowly it devolves until what it had been. And >> this gets us cuz Sole and Ko overlap, right? So like Ko's a young boy during Solah's reign. So Caesar is and so is Pompy Pomp. So we're now in the 70s around the 70s BC. >> So here's the republic. It's very lively. There's a lot of debates. It's very active. But there's also a lot of tension because the republic is depending on these big guys, the big men who are going to represent uh Pompy and Caesar come to the four. There's also a third one as you know, Craas who also wants to be one of the big boys and one of the great military leaders. And the other thing that we have to factor in is that in a way successor spoiled Rome and the old-fashioned Romans who were afraid of the Senate and who respected the power of the Senate are being replaced by new generations who think you know I'm really hot stuff and I should be ruling the world. Um so you get that with Pompy, you get that with Caesar. Craas would have liked to do that but he fails of course. Uh and that's part of the story as well. These are people who don't respect the old rules. Rules are for suckers. Um >> the institutions are slow and ineffective and holding us back. >> And don't you know how great I am? Um so there's part of that as well. So on the one hand, it's a society that's still playing by the old rules, but on the other hand, there are people who won't play by these old rules. There are populists as well who are, you know, really riing up, roing the system. They're riing things up. Uh there's a lot of tensions going on. I mean, scholars disagree. I mean, one of the great scholars of Rome, a man named Eric Gruin, uh argues that the republic could have survived just fine. It was assassinated. >> You know, it did not commit suicide. It was assassinated. Uh and it could have gone on. I think it could have gone on, but only if it had been willing to make compromises with reality. And in the end, it wasn't willing to make those compromises with reality. In fairness, it was really being pushed to the limit by Pompy and >> and Caesar. >> It's like they're driving a car too fast and it's starting to shake under because it's hitting it's it's hitting up against the limits of what it's capable of of withstanding. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely. So, um, it's unclear how they're going to solve this problem. Uh, and in the end, led by Ko, they say, "We're going to solve this problem by going for the jugular. We're going to get Caesar, you know, we're going to strip him of his command and Gaul. We're going to put him on trial, and he's going to be condemned to death. So, what he's going to do is he's going to go into exile." Yeah. >> Um, and that'll be the end of him. End of problem. Get rid of the guy who's putting the most pressure and strain on the system. That's right. >> Bumping up against its limits. Yes. And then things can all go back to normal. >> That's right. And in the meantime, Pompy uh who was allied with Caesar for a while, realizes that his star is going into eclipse and Caesar's is rising and he decides, what do you know? I was a conservative after all. Who knew? So now I'm on the side of the Senate and I will I will fight Caesar on their behalf. >> Yeah. So, a couple things I'm taking from your version of this story. Number one, you know, we go like the fall of the republic and we think about it as like Caesar, Ko, Pompy, whatever. >> But like first off, you're dating it back almost 100 plus years. And then and then this isn't getting into sometimes people conflate the fall of the republic with the fall of Rome itself, which is hundreds of years after that. >> Yes. I think there's a there's a common thread by the way between the two of them, but yes, it's 100 years after that. And the common thread is just compressing an immensely complicated bit of history down into a a single thing or what's the thread? >> I think the thread is citizenship. >> I mean I think the thing about republics uh is almost what Churchill said about democracy. It's the worst form of government except every other form of government. >> Uh republics have this have debate. They have citizen activists. Uh they are unruly but they're also incredibly good at mobilizing the people. behind a cause. Uh when you have politicians that know how to do that, >> it breaks down in the republic. By the time you get to the later Roman Empire, >> citizenship has it hardly exists. The Senate doesn't really do anything anymore. It doesn't have any real power. There haven't been assemblies for a very long time. The people of Italy uh live a privileged life. Uh after around the year 200, there are no soldiers who come from Italy anymore. All the soldiering is being done by people from the the frontier provinces. Yeah. It doesn't mean they're bad or disloyal to Rome. It just means there's no way to mobilize Yeah. >> the the citizenry. There's no way to turn the ship around very easily. Um and so Rome is at the mercy of a few leaders and and unable to make the kind of changes that would have been needed. It would have been very difficult but not impossible uh to keep the empire going. I [music] was just on this tour down the west coast of the United States where I was giving talks. Booked a bunch of different really cool houses on Airbnb. We [music] stayed in Breton right on the water. We stayed in Mendescino and then we made our way down to San Francisco [music] and Sacramento. That was fun. We're heading to Europe this summer. Booked this amazing place on Airbnb. And [music] I always think when I check in like, oh, these people might be doing what I was doing all of those years ago. A lot of people don't know this, but actually one of the reasons I was able to transition from my corporate [music] life to being a writer is that my wife and I used to host our first house [music] on Airbnb. Austin's a great town cuz there's all these big events. There's South by Southwest, there's ACL. When I started to make it as a writer and we moved out to the country, we kept [music] the house. It stayed on Airbnb. I would work there during the week and then on the weekends we'd have guests. And this was a just a little business my wife and I [music] had on the side. My point is, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [music] much at airbnb.com/host. >> So, I almost wonder like from a there's obviously there's sort of the the systemic explanation of history, economic causes, uh, historical forces, etc. And then there's the sort of great man of history theory, which is like individuals are responsible. Everything would have been different if this person didn't exact. What's interesting about the the fall of the republic is it's kind of those two things intersecting with each other >> intersect and it's it's like the answer is both. >> This is the Strauss version of history. It's messy. There's not just one answer. Society and economics matter. Culture matters, but individuals matter as well. You know, if you hadn't had Caesar and then if you hadn't had the incredibly cunning, clever, unscrupulous, ruthless, murderous, but visionary Octavian. Yeah. >> You know, it wouldn't have ended up as the way it ended up, but it might ended up as an Egyptian empire, which could have been totally different. >> Yeah. Or the events and the trends give rise to the opportunity to the individual, and then the individual has the choice, are they going to be a a Caesar or a Catis? That's right. >> Um and it was this kind of convergence of right man, right time, or wrong man, wrong time. And and that's what changes the arc of history. >> Yeah. I mean, I think if you look at the founding, uh, if you look at the American independence, how amazing that was. I wouldn't say it was totally unexpected. The British foreign office or whatever the colonial office, whatever it's called at the time, certainly had toyed with the idea, gee, if we defeat the French, it'll be great, but there's one problem. The colonies won't need us anymore. Yeah. >> Uh, still, the fact that the rebels were able to pull this off is kind of amazing. >> And then that Washington makes the choices that he makes, right? He could have he could have fought a more traditional war. That would have been different. He also could have decided to make himself king or any number of the founders could have decided to to go in a different direction. And >> it's this remarkable set of choices. >> Yeah. >> And they had the benefit of obviously looking back at the previous choices and going, "Hey, how did it go last time?" >> Yeah. I mean, Washington, of course, was a huge fan of Ko, but the Ko that he loved was the Ko of Addison's play. Yes. From the early 18th century. who's not really the real Kate, not the historical Kato. So, it's imaginary KO. >> He's Lin Manuel Miranda's Hamilton, not actual Hamilton. >> Yes, exactly. Imagine. Yeah. Imagine if our leaders used that the the Broadway version of Hamilton. Yes. There could be worse things, but >> No, in a way it was perfect, right? Because I mean, he is a a tragic figure in the play, but but it's a play celebrating primarily the virtues of the person. >> It is. And the Addison version of Ko is the the virtues of Ko, not the frustrating, obnoxious, ineffective version of KO. >> Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. >> They make these choices and and then it works out the way that it does, but it it always could have gone otherwise. >> Absolutely. History is contingent. >> Yes. Are there are there a handful of choices when you look at the fall of the republic that you go, man, that was really a pivot point or you're like, I really hoped he would go in this direction or is there anything that stands out at you? >> Well, certainly, of course, the most famous one is the crossing of the Rubicon. Yes. You know, the fact that Caesar decides to start a civil war rather than giving in. You know, a less determined and less selfish person might have said, "Look, you know, I love myself, but I love my republic country more, and I don't want to put the republic through this." Caesar doesn't say that, >> right? >> You know, he could have been a more of a MacArthur figure who was done an injustice, and some I mean, sort of deserve to get fired in my view, but but like when MacArthur is called back from Korea, he could have made himself a a a more Caesaresque figure than he did. >> Yeah. I mean, William Manchester wrote this book, I think, American Caesar. >> We have it in the bookstore next door. Yes. >> It's a really interesting book, but in the end, he wasn't a Caesar, >> right? >> He makes the choice. >> Yeah. He makes the choice. Caesar decides differently. You know, he says [clears throat] famously, "My dignitas is dearer to me than life itself. My dignity, my rank, my status." Yeah. >> I mean, what that's a very unamerican thing to say, but it's a very Roman thing to say. >> Yeah. Yeah. Although an American might say my reputation is the I live or die on my reputation. >> Yeah. >> Not quite the same thing, >> but the but sort of built into the American story up until relatively recently was always country over self. >> Yes. >> Right. And that that was a powerful norm. >> Yes. >> That that saved us in some some narrow run moments. >> Yes. And well, I don't want to get off topic, but we could talk about why we don't have that anymore. Yeah. >> Okay. I mean, I think the Romans and Greeks would have said it's very simple. Uh, success spoiled America. >> Yeah. >> Luxury. The arrangements believe that luxury was the greatest enemy of republics and that to have a republic, you need to have just a little bit of want, desire, need. You got to keep people hungry. You can't have people thinking the most important thing in life is getting rich and being able to afford $7 lattes every morning. [laughter] Don't you think part of it is also though like and and this is why Ko the elder was concerned and Ko the younger was concerned which is like the norms persist as long as people continue to believe in them and the story is told and retold and each subsequent generation is inspired and steeped in the conditions that make the norm logical and celebratory. >> Yes, but you have to educate people. Yeah, that's what I mean. You lose the ability to do that perhaps in prosperity, but also because you so take it for granted that everyone understands >> you take it for granted. Yeah. You know, so when I was growing up during Vietnam, uh people would sneer at patriotism. Yeah. >> You know, uh I'm not saying we had to support the Vietnam War, but I think that people went beyond that and say there's just something wrong with being >> a super patriot, as they would have said. And that can lead people too far in the other direction just challenging everything >> when it's a feedback loop, right? Because you start to question the idea of patriotism exactly at the moment that your government is proving itself to be not worthy of the trust or faith and then this downward spiral that they experienced in in Rome too. >> Yes. Absolutely. I mean, you have to fulfill your part of the bargain and give citizens the thought that this is the way to go. It's not It's something they should love, but there's a reason why they should love it. >> Yeah. >> It's hard to sell to people. Even if it doesn't work for you, you should still love it. Which is true, but it's hard to get people to >> to see that. >> You should fight in the war that even your average citizen sees as a bad idea and not going well. >> Uh but that is the the Roman way like the the there was this kind of unquestioned obedience. I I think of that story. I forget who it was. It's the famous Roman myth of like the the the hole opens up in the ground and Rome will only be saved if its most valuable things are thrown into it and that Roman gets on his horse and he dives into the hole. Do you know this? >> I'm vague v vaguely I'm afraid I'm drawing a bit of a blank. >> But the point is like unquestionably he just I'll I'll kill myself to to save Rome. >> Well, Dishius Muse I mean he's the guy who engages in self-sacrifice for the sake of Rome. Yes. I mean yes that is a Roman story that the Romans told themselves and they had to believe um that it was worth worth doing that for their society. You know the other thing about it is it's easier in a way when you have an external enemy >> and you feel that you have to make sacrifices because of the cause. Um I mean I think one of the things about the cold war and even even more after the cold war was we felt we weren't really at risk. I think maybe people had felt in the 50s they were, but as things started to calm down a bit, I think less and less people thought, "No one's going to start a nuclear war. We're not really at risk." And then after the Cold War, we thought, "Oh, we're number one." Yeah. >> You know, it's a a uni-olar moment, as they said. >> Well, and then also, I mean, this is getting a little too modern, but like the the idea of an existential godless enemy, right, >> did I think bind the sort of conservative movement >> Yes. into the sort of well we're not going to be opposed to everything. We do understand there are some things more important like it kind of brought everyone on this team of like hey >> yes >> we at least agree on foreign policy that we all hate the Russians. >> Yeah. Or the Soviets. And I mean I think many many liberals felt the same way. You know they said we're not down with conservatism but we don't want communism. >> Yeah. Yeah. So another pivot point that I think a lot about again stoicism is at the center. the decision to assassinate Caesar, right? We have Yes. We have Brutus, right? We have Kato's daughter. >> So, obviously, there's the decision to do it, which is a pivot point, right? >> But then there's also the sort of it strikes me as similarly naive in that they just thought >> we'll strike at the king and then the movement evaporates. Like there there was effectively no plan as to the day after. >> Yes, they did not. I think they underestimated the military. They had thought it through some and they thought that, you know, what we need to do is to say to Caesar's soldiers, we know Caesar has given you this enormous amount of wealth. He's rewarded with enormous amount of wealth and you can keep it. >> Yeah. >> But what they didn't realize is that in order to win over Caesar's soldiers, they need to say, "And we're doubling it. We're giving you more." Which in fact is exactly what Octavian does a bit later. That was their mistake. I mean, just think of I imagine this assembly a few days after the assassination where Brutus is addressing the crowd and he says, "You guys don't have to worry. You can keep what Caesar promised you." I imagine them thinking, "That's it. [laughter] >> We want more. He killed our leader. We got to pay. You got to pay up." Um, and they >> they knew they they were in the cat bird seat and that they were the swing vote. >> Yes. They were the swing vote and it was just a matter of a leader arising who could organize them. Yeah. >> In the end, two leaders arise, Anthony and Octavian. And Octavian just turns out to be infinitely more cunning and ruthless than Octav Anthony. Not that Anthony was a slouch. He wasn't. Yeah. >> But uh Octavian could outfight him. >> And he wanted it more. >> Don't you think? >> Uh yeah, I think he he wanted it more, but he was willing to just do sleazy stuff more than than Anthony was. I just been Anthony wanted to party a little bit. >> Yes. But remember, we're only getting the version that Octavian wants us to have because Octa Anthony didn't live to tell his side of the story. Sure. >> So the version we get was this guy was just a drunkard. I confident that the real Anthony had a lot more on the balls on that. He's obviously very savvy and adapt and driven and ambitious, but he does terry there in Egypt for a bit in a way that I don't know if Octavian would have. >> Again, he we're getting Octavian's version of the story. I mean, Cleopatra is not just, you know, a fabulous uh lover. uh she also is herself she's a very cunning strategist and she's the richest person in the world and she has access to all the savvy of the Tomic Kingdom when it comes to naval stuff in particular right >> so uh Anthony has there's a lot of reasons to want to be with Cleopatra and also finally she's Caesar's girlfriend she's Caesar's woman >> that's the link to the past >> she's the link and also she comes from the family of Alexander the great's general I mean it's tremendous propag propaganda PR advantage for for being with her. Uh she's also a goddess. Uh she's Isis on earth and uh as her consort Anthony is Osiris and he's also she's Aphrodite and he's Dian Isis and we might think oh who cared about that but they did in the ancient world. >> It's like finding out you could be pope or something like in addition to a head of state which is like wow. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, you know, yes, he did tarry in Egypt some, but again, we're getting this propaganda from, you know, August, Octavian Augustus is one of the masters of propaganda in all of history, you know. >> So, as far as lessons, okay, so citizenship matters, the bargain with with your people matters. Obviously, the individual choices and the character of the leaders matters. >> Any other big lessons you feel like we draw from this story? Well, the economy matters. You know, it's the economy, stupid. You know, uh, one of the things that I hear from young people all the time nowadays is, "We can't have the American dream." Yeah. >> You selfish baby boomers took all the money. Uh, and we can't have it. We can't >> we can't buy a house. We can't have kids because it's just too expensive. >> Sure. >> Um, >> also, you wreck the environment. You wrecked the environment. Everything is a mess and you're expecting us That goes back to the bargain, right? Everything's a mess and you're expecting us to play by the rules and have faith. >> Yes. >> And that's looking like a bad bet. >> It's looking like a bad bet. Plus, we have to spend all this money to go to college and then we come out and we can't have a job because it turns out that all the stuff we were promised with a college degree turns out to not be true as you know very well. So, um, and they have a point. They have they absolutely have a point. >> Yeah. So, I mean, when you have a system that's due for change, the question is going to be, well, is it going to have to be violent change? You don't want it to be violent change. How can you evolve the system? >> Yeah. >> How can you make uh changes in the system? So, I would say we want to throw into the the hopper um >> compromise. Compromise being a value. And I think that's really important in republics cuz republics depend on debate and they depend on people vigorously disagreeing with each other but it can go overboard. Isn't that the genius of say like uh an FDR in that there is a moment it's clear the thing is not working. It's clear the bargain has gone bad and then there are the the people uh who for whom you know the system has worked or they are really principled in the sense that they believe in hey this is what the founders wanted. Sometimes it goes like this >> and they don't want to change and he says sorry guys >> it's this or revolution and he figures out how to change within the system without violence >> and sort of mitigate some of those >> it is the genius of FDR and I'd say even more so the genius of Lincoln. Yes. >> You know the ability >> to compromise but also understand there's some things you can't compromise on. Right. So, you know, getting that right and then keeping your head, keeping together during this terrible, terrible crisis. I mean, >> right. Yeah. It is interesting with both FDR and Lincoln. They could have been a Caesar figure and there were people who accused them of being that at the time and obviously they both shattered norms whether you're talking about ABS Corpus with with with Lincoln or you're talking about the decision to run for a third and then a fourth term with FDR. But it was within some self-imposed limits. >> It was It was within some self-imposed limits. Absolutely. Yeah. >> Although maybe Caesar would have said, "I could have gone further. I chose to stop here and then you stop me before I, you know, was able to to sort of turn this thing around." But >> becoming dictator in perpetuity is pretty far. >> Sure. Sure. [laughter] Sure. Sure. Yeah. it. But it is interesting how how at some level it ultimately does come down to the character of the person who finds themselves in that moment and what they're willing to do or not willing to do what they believe and what they don't believe. >> I mean, Caesar did not have to bed the queen of Egypt and produce the next king of Egypt as his his illegitimate son. Yeah. And he did not have to tolerate her being stashed in his villa on the other side of the Daper River while he's living with his wife in downtown Rome. I mean that I think is one of the uh untold reasons. It's unsung story because it's not in Shakespeare uh for >> that made the Romans very nervous. >> It made the Romans very very nervous. Yeah. Very very nervous. >> I think it's so interesting again the Stoics not being pragmatic. But the first thing is it it's it's either Athenodoris or Aris Ditimus. I forget one of the teachers of Octavian he goes you know one cannot have too many Caesars. And and that's the indirect way of saying you got to get rid of uh >> of Cesarian. And and so the Stoics do learn a little bit late that power requires a certain amount of ruthlessness and pragmatism. >> Yeah. Caesar of course was an Epicurion. >> Yes. >> Yes. And sort of got along with the others. But at some level, you know, he probably thought Ko was a sucker at some level. >> I think so. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Caesar is quoted as saying, we don't know if he really said it or not because it came from from an enemy. The republic is a mere name, all form without substance. [laughter] >> Yeah. There's at the center of Caesar is Caesar. >> Yes. >> And at the center of Ko is these principles and ideals and something more abstract and theoretical. >> Yes. But let me defend Caesar a little bit. I mean, Caesar really does believe in the Roman people. Mhm. >> Um and both in the rights of the Roman people and also in taking care of the Roman people and making sure they had uh prosperity. I mean there's an Italian scholar who wrote a book called Caesar the Democratic dictator. >> And I think that's going too far. I don't think he was a democrat but he did care about the people in the way that ao did not really. Yeah. That is that is something that you find both in the ancient world and in the modern world. There is this okay sure the principle is important you are right >> but people are starving in the streets if the government is failing to do its job it doesn't matter that I think Lincoln said this he's like the constitution is not suicide pact okay you know like like you can't expect me to stay true to these things if it means people can just leave the compact of states at any time or whatever and Ko I think I mean he does famously commit suicide he probably didn't have a problem with principles being a suicide pact. I think he kind of thought [laughter] at some level thought that was the highest expression of their value. >> Yeah, I think that's true. Um and he was ahead of his time because suicide hadn't become as highly regarded as it would be when in the next century under the Stoics. >> Yeah, it's highly regarded. No, but it it it was a dramatic act of devotion. He thought not cowardice or weakness, but like the monk in Vietnam lighting. sets himself on fire. >> It's funny. I'm reviewing a book about Carthage and I realized that one of the things we remember about Carthaginians is the ones who committed suicide. Yeah. >> Like Hannibal and Daido. >> Yeah. I was reading um Andrew Roberts's biography of Napoleon a few years ago and he has this great section which came out of no where where Napoleon is just [ __ ] on Ko. >> He's like, you know, Ko, he committed suicide and who did it help? Caesar. What did it accomplish? Nothing. You know, and and like on on the one level he's right, and then on the other level you're like, well, of course Napoleon doesn't understand. Napoleon is a Caesar. Of course, he doesn't respect a KO. >> Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. >> It's almost like these figures are just speaking totally different languages and they can't understand each other and they think the other one is the crazy person. [gasps] >> I think that's true. >> Yeah. And ideally the purpose of institutions I guess and this is what the founders I think did well although it's clearly under strain these days is like >> how do you create systems or structures that channel some of that energy allow it to dissipate and we've managed to head it off for 250 years but the pressures remain. >> Yeah. And the you're absolutely right. And the thing about institutions though is that you need to have the societal underpinnings. Yeah. >> That make them work and that make people say yes, this is the right way to do things. Yeah. If it's just a piece of paper, >> you know, it doesn't mean anything. John Adams famously said, "Our Constitution will only work for religious people. >> It's not not suitable for anyone else." >> And maybe we could substitute religion for principles. He means like a Yeah, because it is funny because I was just reading something the other day where he was reassuring in that treaty against the Tripoli pirates or whatever, he was like, "We're not going to wage a war against the Muslims because we're by no means a Christian nation." >> Right. Interesting. >> So he said that but I think his point is the constitution only works and he said this more explicitly somewhere else like if the people are virtuous. >> Yes. >> Absolutely. Yeah. And you know the constitution doesn't say much about that and that was left to the states and it does talk some of the state constitutions do talk about that. >> Yeah. >> But education is an unspoken thing. Yeah. >> And it's enormously important. TOEFL of course does talk about that more and does get it that you don't have democracy in America because you have a piece of paper. You have democracy in America because it lives in people's hearts. Yeah. >> Uh and it lives in their hearts because that's their way of life. So I mean I think that is a challenge for us today is is it is in any generation you you can't rest on your laurels you have to come up with more ways >> yes that >> well you also I think were realizing today just how as explicit as the constitution is and then they made it more explicit with the bill of rights >> that it is primarily a system of government centered around a bunch of unwritten norms like it's more British than we thought it was. >> That's a good way to put it. >> And then it's very hard to continue those norms if you get to a point where suddenly everyone >> there what's that thing the chest Chesterton uh fence thing where it's like we don't know why the fence is here like we don't know what why is there a norm that this can't happen or that can't happen. Why does the president have to voluntarily leave after two terms or like all these norms like pard the pardon power was in obviously you can't pardon yourself and you can't preemptively pardon people for crimes they haven't committed and you can't dangle pardons in front of people for committing crime like that's not explicitly set out anywhere but but George Washington would have barely conceived of someone conceiving of doing such a thing >> right I agree with you but you can't enforce norms by saying we're going to enforce norms, darn it. You know, you've got it's really got to be in people's hearts and they have to be educated this way. I mean, Aristotle talks about the important of habit and habituating people in education. And I think that's >> that's just so important. I think one of the reasons our societyy's in the trouble it's in today is because of the educational system. >> Yeah. >> And and the way we don't raise people, the things we do teach them and the things we don't teach them. >> Yeah. And and the way it was for the founders is they're so steeped in the stories that the characters that you write about in the books and not just like they're signing the federalist papers with their fake Roman names, but like if you had called uh someone a cataline or whatever, they'd they'd all have known. And then if you if you called Trump a cataline, like what percentage of the population is like what are you talking about? [laughter] >> You know, they just don't it's like we're only able to say someone's like a Hitler or Martin Luther King. like we have like five people we can name. We don't have the sort of historical narrative that that is so rooted in why we have certain systems and what certain norms are. >> Well, Americans have often devalued history. I mean, it's not an accident that it was Henry Ford who said history is bunk. I mean, you know, Americans live for the present and live for the future. >> Yeah. >> We we don't really live in the past, but we need to >> study history. I mean, we really do. >> It was funny. So, this thing I was at yesterday, they were the guy was talking about he' taken his kids to New York City and they they were at this museum. They were looking at all these classical sculptures and history >> and that was all very impressive and then they went to this play and it was full of woke garbage, you know, he was ranting about this, >> you know, there was transgenderism and it was like, okay, first off, the Romans that you're celebrating, they had a lot of sex with guys, okay? [laughter] I think you would be I think you'd be horrified at at what you were what what Roman culture Greek culture was actually like. But that's neither here nor there. There is this sense that those civilizational values are in retreat or decay. >> And what do you think you do about it? What what do you do about it? >> I think you have to I I mean I'm very platonic about this. I mean I think you have to educate the young. Yeah. I mean, you're not going to have the society you want unless you educate the young in the way that they need to be educated. >> Uh, and you know, Plato gets that 100% right. So, >> I think that's what we have to do. I mean, that's my job as an educator to think about how we're going to educate young people. What are the stories we're going to tell them? What are the books we're going to have them read? What are the ideas that we want them to have? What are the practices we want them to engage in? >> And I think as a society, we've been kind of less afair about this. uh and not taking it as seriously uh as uh we need to do. You know the American thing, those who can do, those who can't teach. I mean, >> okay, yeah, I get it to a degree, but those teachers are really important. And what we teach our kids and how we teach our kids is some of the most one of the most important things that we can do. Well, it's like this STEM stuff is really important, right? It is. And at the same time, if you if you go, "No, get an engineering degree or you got to learn how to do something that'll help you get a job. What are you studying?" A bunch of It's like it's like the the humanities and these stories got taken out by both ends. It's like the this isn't practical. I'm not paying you to go to school to be a philosopher. And then also, >> it's just a bunch of old dead white guys uh who who were slave owners. Screw them. What do they what can they teach us? And so we we end up cutting down our sort of shared consensus and understanding of those values in both directions. And then we're like, why don't people believe in this stuff anymore? >> They don't It's not they don't believe it, they don't even know it. >> They don't even know it. Yes. They don't even know it. >> And that's that's the problem. We really have to put it back on the agenda that young people are learning about this. >> Yeah. >> Um and tackling these ideas and thinking they're important. I mean, so I'm visiting the school of civic leadership at at Texas and one of the things I like is the fact that you can do a minor. I don't know what they call it, but taking I believe it's six courses in civic leadership and they've got engineers who are doing this. I think I think that's great. You know, I think that's the kind of thing that we need to be doing in our universities and we have to say to people, you really do have to read the great books and you really do have to join the great debate and be part of the great ideas. Of course, you can be an engineer. We want we need more engineers. In fact, uh, but we also want you to have some sense of this. And of course, it's almost too late if it just starts in university. >> Yeah, I was just going to say, you know, my nine-year-old's obsessed with Greek history and, you know, having these discussions about the Odyssey. Should should Odysius have done this? Why? Why, you know, was it right to not tell the men as they're going through Sil and Terminus that that six of them are going to die or, you know, should he have shouted out who he was to Polyis? And and you're talking about these things and and you realize like did the Greeks and the Romans really think Odysius was real and that this happened? I don't know. And and I I would suspect no. I think they knew that this is all myth, but the purpose of history to them was not always to be factually correct in the way that we have to root everything in primary sources. Like Plutarch's a great biographer even though he's not super accurate because he's getting to the essence of these figures. >> You know, he's not bad, by the way, as a historical source. You can't really trust any of the speeches that he gives because ancient historians didn't think it was their job to tell what people really said. It's what they should like a recording. >> No. uh but I think he's not bad on historical facts but whether they believed in their myth or not even Aristotle quotes the Iliad you know so >> but I mean the the primary purpose of that history was to teach the value not even the values but to to bring up the moral debates that the incidents in the the story forc us to wrestle with you know and and the idea of uh yes Caesar crossing the Rubicon is both a historical event and then a moral question for all of us in our own Rubicons, right? And that's >> what you would study and debate and talk about, >> right? Yes. Yes. >> Not just a a saying the die is cast. Like it's not just this little historical fact that you get quizzed on like and then Yeah. Now with AI or whatever, it's like the po the purpose isn't to have chat GBT write you an essay on whether Caesar should have done this or that. It's to really sit down and think about what you think about whether he should have done this or that. That's why most of us in the academic business don't assign essays anymore >> really because yeah we know the students can get it from chat GBT. So we either have them write blue books or we >> in the room. >> In the room uh or we give them oral exams. I did both. Uh I I taught with a colleague last quarter Stanford and Hoover has this great program called the Stanford Civics Initiative. Yeah. >> And so we taught this course on um classical leadership which was just wonderful. And the students were out of this world, but they had one blue book exam and they had one oral exam. And right, you know, I think you need to do stuff like that unfortunately in the age of AI until we figure out this AI thing and come up with new ways to test people. >> Yeah. Although, you know, we've been my my son will be like, I have this question, you know, why he he was like, why if Odysius's father is still alive, >> right? >> Why didn't he just step in temporarily as king? Like, and I was like, I never thought about that. Like I it right. He's the whole thing is she's weaving this funeral shroud for a guy that's still alive. Seems like it would solve the king problem. But he's too old and weak. That's the problem, >> right? But but it was like, okay, let's have let's let's have chat GBD tell us what are the five perspectives on that thing because I I I'm not currently in a university. I can't call you, you know. But it is interesting that like these tools can maybe enable us to continue thinking about these questions from different angles, but it can't do the the questioning for us. >> No, it can't. I mean, it's they're they're limited and as you know, they make big mistakes as well. >> They make a lot of [ __ ] up, too. >> Yeah, they do. Hallucinations. I, for instance, I was doing a paper about uh 19th century Americans use of classical oratory. Yeah. And I thought, what about Frederick Douglas? Hm. I don't think he used Greek and Roman oratory, but maybe he did. Yeah. So I asked Chap GPT and it told me this whole story and I thought could you give me some quotations please? Yes. And a few minutes later it said no actually I think I was wrong. I don't have any quotations for you. I don't think he actually said those things at all. But isn't that the real skill like like the >> I've been I've been thinking a lot about this right because uh it is this kind of ma it seems like it's this magical tool which does have access to ungodly amounts of information. And so really the ability to use it is one can you type a good question? Yes. >> And like do you have the ability to ask insightful questions and curiosity, but then do you have a good [ __ ] detector? You had to know enough about Frederick Douglas to push back on the the answer. >> Absolutely. So you you can't trust it, but the more you know, the better off you are. So I also use these things to tell me about all sorts of things I don't know about. For instance, I wanted to get I I commute by bike and I wanted to get a a good summer biking vest. Yeah. >> And so I asked it, "So what are the the best ones?" And it gave me some some I'd never heard of these companies and I had to look them up and I emailed some of them and whatnot. In the end, I got something really good and it was thanks to AI that I did, but not simply because of AI. It's cuz I pushed back and said, "Okay, what about this?" >> It's also like I'm doing this uh book on Stockdale right now. >> Oh, cool. >> And and by the way, talk about being introduced to the classics. like his introduction to philosophy with professor Rinlander at Stanford changes the course of his life >> uh at the Hoover Institute and anyways there's this video of this the survival school that he goes to >> and I I load it into chat GPT and I go tell me all the plants that are appearing in this video so I don't have to call a plant expert and verify each one and it does and then you know I'm able to independ so it gives me the list and then I cross reference that list against you know another list of plants indigenous to San Diego. I go, okay, it's saying this is here, but that actually can't. But but the interesting thing is like if you've ever worked with researchers or in your case, grad students, >> you can never trust what people give you period. You you always have to push back. So in a way, it's actually familiarizing people with >> a skill set that only a small percentage of the population had to have before, which is how do you scale your brain and research? You know, you can have people go track stuff down for you, but one, you have to have a vague sense of where stuff is, >> right? >> And you have to have a good sense of what's too good to be true or not. >> I I think that maybe a reason why you still want to have people do old-fashioned library research. >> Totally. >> Yeah. You know, where they have to get into the weeds and have to find their own way out of it, which I think will then help them in dealing with AI. >> Yeah. And also serendipity and some stuff is not everything is digitized, you know. >> Yes. Not everything is digitized and a lot of the stuff that's A lot of AI is getting a lot of this information from questionable sources. >> Yes. It's it's waiting a book in a library and some random blog post. Yeah. >> Or you know, Wikipedia, which can be wonderful, but sometimes it's not so wonderful. >> So, you know, >> it's questionable sometimes. >> No, I'm trying to teach my kids this. Just the other day, we found a quarter on the ground and it was this quarter I'd never seen. So, we said, "Let's ask Jack GBT what kind of quarter this is." You know, it goes, "Uh, actually, you're not holding a quarter. You're holding a penny." And I go, "I'm pretty sure it was a [ __ ] quarter." Okay. [laughter] You know, it's definitely a quarter. Let me show you. But uh No, no, that's a that's definitely a penny. After three or four back and forth of it gaslighting me about whether this is a quarter or penny or not, I finally get it to understand it's a quarter. And then it promptly tells me, oh, it's this that's a quarter with Elanor Roosevelt on. >> I don't think it is, you know. And then finally, it does kick out a list of uh some quarter that some series the Mint had done with female figures on them. And then I was able to myself deduce which one it was. >> It was this Mexican-American activist whose name I'm forgetting and I don't want to butcher my guessing, but but it was like me and this idiot figured it out together, you know, or me and this liar figured it out together, but it it took the the handful of rounds and not accepting the first answer. In a way it was kind of a good exercise in my kids is like hey you just can't trust the first thing that it kicks back and then the each time it's like >> great job by by pushing back you know it's like it's also trying to flatter you >> reminds me of Socrates [laughter] >> how easily it'll change positions and kind of challenge you or not not challenge you but but it's sort of working you along. Well, you know, he called him compared himself to a stingray and also to a uh a horse fly, you know, uh constantly stinging what what do flies do? But bugging this horse. Um you know, maybe that's what we all have to be when when it comes to uh AI. >> Yeah. I have a joke in the the book I just did on wisdom where I was like, um for someone so smart, sort of seems like a misreading of the situation to tell the Athenian people that you're a horsefly cuz people don't like flies. Like what do they do with flies? They they kill them. And so, of course, ultimately that's what they did. You'd think he would have picked something maybe more uh more beloved. >> Oh yeah, it's a great question. And one of the things about Socrates is did he want to die? Yes. You know, >> did he want to make himself a martyr for philosophy? >> Also, there's no I mean like there are, you know, people don't like spiders or whatever and you're like, hey, but they're eating mosquitoes and bugs or what, you know, [clears throat] there's not much purpose to a fly. like a I don't think a fly has a positive uh obviously every species has some role in the ecosystem but it's it's also illustrative that the thing that Socrates would pick would be a a bug of very little societal value [laughter] >> and he compares the people of Athens to a big dumb horse. I mean it's not >> it's not great. >> Well, you know that's why one of the reasons why Arasmus famously says pray for us St. Socrates. He thought that Socrates was a saintly figure who made himself a martyr on purpose. >> Maulay I think said, "The more I read about Socrates, the more I understand why they killed him." [laughter] That gets closer to it, too. >> Well, definitely. I mean, he was working handin glove with the people who became oligarchs and you know, and the story that he he tells the story or I forget where it I think it's in the apology that the 30 the oligarchs send him to arrest Leon of Salamus who they want to bring in then kill and confiscate his property and Socrates is proud of the fact that he does he refuses to do it he just goes home but as a colleague of mine once said if Socrates were really great he would have gone warnedly on Alamus and he doesn't do that >> yes yeah he is uh he's a comp he's a complicated figure >> absolutely yes >> I have one more qu I had a question specifically about this book because someone asked me the other day they were uh was talking about stoicism, right? And he he was he's a Jewish person and he was saying that when he reads some of the ancient Jewish texts, how similar it struck him to some of the stoic teachings and some of the ideas from from the Romans. So, how do you think it is this sad collision course of these two societies, >> but but then >> an immense overlap in other ways? >> Mhm. I think that's true. You know, I think that there's cross fertilization. I mean, if you look at where ancient Israel, Palestine is, it's at a crossroads of civilization. And there's Jewish diaspora that goes westward into the Roman Empire, but eastward into the Parthion and Cisanian Empire, right? Um, so, uh, there's lots of ideas that are going back and forth. And I think that >> each of these civilizations, particularly the Jewish civilization, I'm Jewish, too, so I know a lot about it. Each of these civilizations has its own way of dealing with things, but some of the same questions come up. And in some cases, they wrestle with the other person's ideas and they say, "This is why we reject them." But they're aware of them. >> And same same with obviously the the Christians coming up through Rome. And then also when it flips, then the then the Christians are are sort of borrowing and taking credit for some basic philosophical ideas that predate them. >> Yeah. I think it's Augustine who says we have to spoil the Egyptians. And what he means by this is he's talking about um the thing in in in the book of Exodus where uh when uh the children of Israel leave Egypt uh the Egyptians say please get out of here. You've killed our firstborn here. Take our gold and silver. Just get out of here please. And so Augustine is using this image of saying we have to take from classical civilization what's useful for us. And we're not going to take all the horrible bad things like all those awful uh Egyptian uh gods and and goddesses. Sure. Um so yeah, I mean civilizations do take some things from other civilizations, but then they >> they mold them. They put their own spin on them. They uh they mold them. I mean there's this uh famous uh book of the Tomud called the wisdom of the fathers. Yeah. >> Uh and when you read it sometimes you think who wrote this? Socrates. I mean it almost seems so Socratic and >> yeah when I read Ecclesiastes I'm like what stoic philosopher is this? >> Yes I know. Yeah. Yeah. It's really fascinating. >> And what is that idea like the best ideas are common property at some level that like every cliche was invented by someone at some point and we agreed with it and that's why we >> make it sort of into our own practice. >> Right. Right. Right. >> You want to check out some books in the bookstore? Sure. >> Let's do it.