Senator Mark Kelly on Stoicism, Space, and Staying Calm Under Pressure

We've met once before. I don't you would have no memory of this, but it had an impact on me. So, I was going to tell you about it. It was a Do you remember Renaissance weekends? >> Yes. >> It was one of those. It was New Year's in Charleston, I think. This would have been like 2011 or 2012. >> Okay, so was it before Gabby got shot or after? >> so. I think before. >> Because it was days before in 2011 we were there. The last one we went to was in 2012, a year after she got shot. >> It was It was I think before. I think it was before cuz what I remember this is my wife and I we weren't married yet. We were but we were starting to think about having a family and I remember you you had very like maybe preteen or teen daughters and I remember you had your hands full and I was like he's an astronaut and he has his hands full. What are we signing up for? And I thought about that every once in a while in the years since. I That was That was my memory of meeting you. >> I was just with my daughter Claudia at the McCain Sedona Forum and a woman came up to us who used to go, she says same thing. You wouldn't remember but at the Renaissance weekend thing and her son was my daughter's age. >> Got it. >> And uh we basically had the same conversation. About how cuz my kids in you know 2011 you know was 15 years so she was She was 15. So, I had a 15-year-old and a 13-year-old there and they loved going to that thing. >> It was probably 11:30 at night. They're getting to stay out. It was craziness, you know, and there's kids and they're in a hotel. It was probably incredibly fun for them but I just remember okay, this is what that's like. >> That is what it's like. >> [laughter] >> And kids are great and it's so much fun and then and for me even as when they were teenagers it's all great until like one of them takes the car doesn't come back for 24 hours. >> [laughter] >> You're like why did I do this? >> Well, I thought about it because >> have grandkids, ooh, which is the best. >> My 9-year-old is about to turn 10. He told me he's a preteen. And I was like, oh, okay, now it's it's real. I mean, it's technically I guess technically true, but I was like, oh man, okay, so it's about to get it's about to get real. >> Does he think he gets like more privileges or something when >> he thinks. I think he I think he just occurred to him the math of it just became real. >> She just tell him that gets you nothing. >> Yeah, it actually gets you less. I'm going to watch you more like a hawk now. >> Right. >> Cuz you're going to start doing things that you >> you're going to get consequences for that. >> Yes, totally. The other person I met at that one that I was one of the cool encounters in my life was Jim Lovell was >> Oh, yeah. >> Not I don't know if he was at that one or another one, but I I found myself sitting at a dinner table with him and I was like, was this real life? This is crazy. >> Yeah, I mean, Apollo 13, commander. >> Yeah. >> Uh, went around the moon, I think on Apollo 10 as well. A guy I you know, >> got to know a little bit. >> Yeah, I got to NASA to the astronaut office long after he was gone. >> Sure. >> But I did get to meet him a number of times and he's one of those guys I looked up to when I was a kid. >> Yeah. >> [snorts] >> Yeah, I think probably your layperson probably thinks, oh, they all know each other and then they you probably all do. >> We don't. No, but I knew Neil Armstrong pretty well. I knew Buzz Aldrin pretty well. John Glenn, I got to sit next between John Glenn and Neil Armstrong at a dinner once. >> Wow. >> After I was an astronaut. >> Yeah. >> But uh, other than my four space flights, that was probably the next biggest cool thing for me, uh, is that dinner and it was on the 50th, I think the 50th anniversary of John Glenn's first flight. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I I remember >> get a picture. Ooh. >> Didn't happen then. >> Well, I thought it would be too weird. >> Yeah. >> To like ask for a selfie with John Glenn and Neil Armstrong sitting at the dinner table, but I I do kind of regret it. >> Well, in in in The Right Stuff, the line that I was always struck by is Tom Wolfe points out that like John Glenn's heart rate never goes above 100 during the the thing. And I asked Jim Lovell, I was like, "Could that possibly be true? Like, how could his How could it not be pounding out of his chest?" And he was like, "I mean, you've just done it so many times that unless something's going wrong, this is this is normal." >> You mean when he was strapped into the rocket ship before launch? >> What just just in the course of the mission. Did he never gets this spike of adrenaline? >> Yeah, I I think it's different for different people. You know, we we've done EKGs on even shuttle crew members, I think. I never wore one, but I think they did for some, you know, some data. And I've heard of folks that feel like, you know, their heart is rapidly beating. I thought about that on my four missions, and I think my heart rate was up >> a little bit. >> Yeah. More about like, don't don't screw this up. >> Yeah. >> Cuz as a pilot and the commander, you're turning a lot of stuff on. You got to make sure things go well, and you can mess it up where the launch is going to stop. >> Yeah. >> And then it's like you wasted, you know, millions of dollars worth of fuel, and all your guests have to come back the next day, and it's going to be kind of embarrassing. So, you're worried about that. >> Yeah. >> You're also worried about getting blown up a little bit. >> Did you have techniques for calming yourself down? >> No. No, I probably should have. >> [laughter] >> I don't think they would work on me. >> Yeah. >> I gener- generally don't get worked up about things all that much. You know, I've had a long career. I used to fly airplanes off of an aircraft carrier. I've almost gotten shot down a number of times. Had a missile blow up next to my airplane. Almost flew into the ground, you know, two or three times. Because of me? >> Yeah. >> Like screwing it up. >> Pilot error. >> Yeah, pilot error. >> Yeah. >> You know, once in Korea I got really close. So, other things lately just don't get I don't get too worked up. >> Yeah, well, I would imagine landing on a carrier at night sort of level sets what scary and >> Yeah, and that's scary, by the way. And you know, if somebody would you know, have the you know, EKG on me measuring my heart rate for that, that's really high. Because it's a hard thing to do. It's hard to do well. >> It feels like like they they've done studies of like what it means to actually hit a pitcher's fastball. Like you have like 400 milliseconds to decide like it it seems impossible that a human can do it. A carrier landing strikes me as almost like if I hadn't seen videos of people doing it and you described it to me, I would say that's not possible. >> Yeah. Yeah, I would I would have thought so myself until I had to do it. >> Yeah. >> Uh eventually it gets to the point where in the daytime you get s- comfortable >> Yeah. >> doing it and you can you know, you feel like hey, I can be successful at this. At night, it's a controlled crash and you're just like you're just holding on. And the it you know, I don't know you know, what what frequency your you know, our brains are operating on in that moment. But the stick movement and the throttle movement can be just kind of kind of nuts. >> Yeah, I mean, you're in an enormous thing hitting a minuscule target in the middle of the ocean. >> Yeah. >> And >> And and if you if you land short, the ramp strike is a high probability. >> Yeah. >> And then you're dead. >> And and almost well, I thought it was I was reading about this. It's like that they don't even refer to it as landing. They call it like recovering the aircraft. Strikes me as illustrative of like no, no, we're snatching victory from the jaws of defeat every time. >> Yeah, it's [snorts] the recovery. The launch, the recovery. >> Yeah. >> And you got to get all these airplanes aboard in a short period of time. You just and know, then you got to move them. You know, you're moving them around on the deck and what we call it physically the event is we call it a trap. >> Yeah. >> Um which is now that I think about it is a weird way to say it cuz a trap is usually like you're you're going to you know, capture an animal. >> Yeah. >> But the event of landing on the aircraft carrier, that's a trap. >> Is that cuz you're being snagged by the wire and that's the trap? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You have a hook. There's a wire. I've done that well, 375 times, something like that. >> Does it get any easier? Not at night. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Daytime it does. >> Just because you can at least see what's happening? >> It's just scary at night. I mean, it's just you're you know, you're especially if there's no horizon. >> Yeah. >> You know, you're you know, you're flying initially on instruments. So, you're flying an ILS approach. And then you get to 3/4 of a mile all and then you transition to the the light system, the meatball, the Fresnel lens on the deck and it's a very high gain task, a lot of inputs. >> Yeah. >> You get waved off maybe if your if you're if it's not looking good. I used to be a landing signals officer as well standing on the side of the ship when other airplanes are coming aboard and you're talking to them. >> Yeah. >> Right and you're telling you know, you're giving them suggestions. You know, you might say like, you know, you're a little high. You know, don't fly through it. Uh power power wave off or right for lineup or don't settle. You know, then so you're you've got this cadence of talking somebody through this landing. You get waved off or you bolter which is means the wire or the hook doesn't catch the wire, you go airborne again, you come around again. You might bolter again. Now you need to gas. Now then, to go to the tanker. It's embarrassing. Especially if you have to go to the tanker multiple times, a night in the barrel is what we call it. You had your night in the barrel. And sometimes you're doing this in what we call blue water ops, which means there's no divert. >> You can't go land on a runway somewhere. >> Yeah, cuz they're like, you you don't have the stuff tonight. It's too far. Get out of here. You're not And And there are only certain people that can fly during blue water ops. Yeah. And then you're If it's blue water ops, there's the extra anxiety at night that you have to get aboard the ship. >> Right. >> You know, if things start to go really south on somebody, they'll rig the barricade. So, then there's no boltering. >> That's to catch you. >> Yeah. Like if it got really bad, I never I don't remember anybody ever being having a their night in the barrel where they rig the barricade on our ship. So, it's a It's an uncommon thing, but it does happen. >> Yeah, and you know everyone is watching as after you've missed a couple of times, everyone's starting to watch. >> Every one of the ready rooms, everybody's, you know, watching then you did your guy go around and around. They know who it is. >> Yeah. >> And you know, I guess some people are cheering you on and then there's, you know, probably a little depending on who the person is, a little bit of that schadenfreude there. >> Maybe they're betting on [clears throat] it. >> Uh maybe. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I was fascinated to learn that every landing, so you did you did 300 plus, everyone you get a grade. >> Yes, graded on all of them. >> Yeah. >> Now, this has gotten a become a lot different >> Okay. >> now lately over the last decade or so because of advances in the systems even on like an F-18, there's this thing called magic carpet, which helps you fly the airplane in a way that keeps you on glide slope much more easily. I went out to the ship a couple years ago in the backseat of a F-18. And I was The guy in the front was a Navy lieutenant, and he was just talking through this. and he would say even when he's on the ball which is behind the ship at a half a mile he says he can look around and see where people are walking around on the flight deck. Not a thing. And when I was back in the day when I was >> And I'm sure before that like I mean aren't the LSO's called paddles cuz they used to just do it with like you had paddles? Yeah. >> But yeah we didn't do it with paddles we did it over the radio and we have a thing called a pickle which we can wave them off. You know red lights come on on the fornel lens and people have to go around. But they've improved these systems so the boarding rate now is really high. It's very rare that somebody bolters or they get waved off and what that's allowed us to do in the Navy is we've just transitioned to where people don't even go to the ship before they get their wings anymore. They're going to go to their fleet airplane and [snorts] we have to do a lot less practice. Used to be so much time and energy and effort >> [snorts] >> to train the crews up to be able to operate off the ship. It's gotten a lot easier and what that means they can focus on the mission more. >> Right. >> Which is often the strike mission of you know dropping bombs or the fighter mission of countering a enemy air threat. So we're now a much more effective naval air force because of it becoming easier to land on the ship. >> Right. Right. Yeah Dave Dave Burke who was an LSO I was reading about him and he was saying that it says something about the culture of the Navy that every landing is graded and the best grade you can get is okay. >> That's right. No you can get an okay underline. >> [laughter] >> But there's no such thing as perfection. There's no such thing as a really good job. >> which are very rare. That's perfection. And then an okay and then fair and then a no grade. >> Yeah. >> And was there anything This is on This is dating my This a long time ago I was in LSO. Uh below a There was something below a no-grade, but it was No-grade's bad. >> Yeah. It's a brutal scale. Like it's >> And then it's And then it's uh displayed in the ready room. >> Yes. >> So, everybody sees the grades. >> Yeah. >> Required under naval rules for aviation that the grades be displayed. So, everybody knows who's doing the best and who's doing the worst, and that worst guy doesn't want to be the worst guy next week. >> And that's creating a culture of excellence and competition and >> And hard work. >> Yeah. >> And just, you know, you're just going to grind through it and always try to get better. >> Yeah. >> Because everybody's going to see your grade. And the okay was uh green. Uh fair was yellow, and no-grade was white. I can't remember what okay underline was. That was a really good pass. >> Did you ever get one of those? >> I don't think so. >> Right. Yeah, it's probably one of those >> usually F-18s got them. Yeah, I flew the A-6 Intruder. It's a little harder to to land on the ship. >> It must be hard to do something so difficult that even as you get really good at it, it's still so like you're never going to feel like I've got this, and yet if you don't feel like you've got it, it probably makes it hard to do. Like the the the confidence ego line and then imposter syndrome, the balancing of those three things must be interesting. >> It's I I I think it's also good to always have a little bit of anxiety about it. >> Mhm. >> I think you're You know, when you plot like performance and an- anxiety, sometimes your performance goes up if you're more anxious about it. >> Yeah. >> And and you know, you're not And it's always good, you know, you don't want somebody who has such an ego that they think they're good at something. >> Yeah. >> I think we see this at very high levels in our government right now. >> Uh-huh. Yes. >> You know, somebody who thinks that they're they've got this. >> Yes. They're not intimidated by the task or or they're not humbled before the task as they they probably should be. >> Yeah, that's right. I think it's always good to have people knowing that they're never gonna never gonna reach the place that they want to get to. >> Yeah. >> You know, that's gonna mean that they're gonna continuously try to improve. Uh it makes them better. But if they ever think they actually got there, if they have that kind of ego, and they think, "Man, I got this." >> Yeah. >> Then they're gonna get worse. >> Floyd Patterson the boxer he went into one fight that he lost and he said he knew he was gonna lose as soon as he stepped in the ring cuz he didn't have any nerves. >> Wow. >> Which meant he he hadn't taken it seriously and he just it was this sort of stomach-churning moment of realizing that he had he had taken some things for granted and that the other person hadn't. >> Yep. Yeah. I used to feel that way, you know, around the ship, especially for the like during the day if I'm flying at night I'd have that knot in my stomach the entire day. Yeah. A little bit with the space shuttle, you know, when you're going out there, you're driving out to the launch pad, you got that like little bit of a knot in your stomach. >> Yeah. >> Cuz you know, this is like game time. I got to get this right. I can't screw it up. >> It's a sign of respect to the thing. >> Yeah. >> You know, and if you don't have it, it's probably ego and a and a kind of finger to the gods and they're gonna they're gonna make you pay for it. >> That's right. >> [laughter] >> The big hammer's coming down on you. >> Yeah, pride goeth before the fall. As soon as you think you've got it, you're about to learn the part of it that you don't have. >> Yeah. Yeah, and I'll tell you what, with the space shuttle especially >> Yeah. >> there was, you know, something hiding around the corner that was about to kill you all the time. >> Well, I can imagine at least fighter jets a a lot of people have done a lot of flights, right? So, there's a lot more data about what can go wrong. You have millions of cumulative human hours doing this thing. >> Yeah. >> And even though we've been going to space a surprisingly long time, we haven't done it that much and not that many people have done it. >> Yeah, I mean, I flew the 108th, 121st, 124th, and the 134th flight of the space shuttle. That in a test program. >> Yeah. >> For an airplane, think of about like a Boeing, you know, the Boeing's triple 7. >> Yeah. >> That is in the beginning, the infancy >> Yes. >> of a test program. >> Right. >> And the last space shuttle flight was the one after my last one, the 135 times. So, yeah, I mean, I mean, that's one of the reasons they hired test pilots for this job. >> Right. >> And by the time we ended the space shuttle program, there was still a lot we did not understand about it. >> Yeah, I mean, you went to test pilot school. I mean, those pilots have thousands of hours in these jets. >> Yeah. >> And yeah, to be the 108th flight >> Yeah. >> period >> Period. >> is like Obviously, every plane has a 108th flight, but that was like so long ago. >> Yeah, and it took us uh in the space shuttle, the first flight was in 1981. My that 108th flight was in 2001. 20 years later. >> Yeah. >> And to go to fly the next 30 flights took another decade. Yeah, we didn't fly a lot. >> Yeah. >> It's expensive. >> Mhm. >> It also took a lot to get the space shuttle orbiter ready for a mission. >> Yeah. >> You basically take it all apart and put it back together every time, which might not have been the smartest thing to do. >> Yeah, if there's something that goes wrong every 10,000 times, no one knows what that thing is because it's never happened cuz they haven't done it 10,000 times yet. >> Well, that's the thing about probabilistic risk assessment is when you're not you're not doing a lot of them, you don't really know what the risk is, especially not until you start having some problems. >> Yeah. >> But without the repetition, you don't have the problems. So, the risk is still very uncertain. >> Right. It's an unknown unknown, cuz you don't even know So, you have the you have the sum, and then you have the the things that we've never even >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> We were okay with the known unknowns. >> Yes. >> The unknown unknowns. >> Those are the ones that keep you up at night. >> Yes. And so, you're always like mapping this stuff out, like, you know, the probability of it happening and the risk, like, is it you know, is it catastrophic? You know, so, you try to then you you always got to focus in the in the very likely and catastrophic, you know, quarter of the box. >> Yeah. >> You know, the unlikely, uneventful stuff, you can you know, sort of let that go. But even the unlikely catastrophic, you have to focus there because of the consequences. >> Yeah, so, you talked about some of the things that have gone wrong on your flights, space and otherwise. Are those are those are things that you prepared mentally for? Like, you roughly knew what to do? Or what do you do when everything is So, >> in the space shuttle, we train a lot, thousands of hours. I have I have about 6,000 hours of flight time, I think. I stopped counting at some point. I probably have as much time in the space shuttle simulator. >> Yeah. >> You know, we just spend a ton of time, over, you know, for me, over 15 years, practicing almost every possible scenario of multiple malfunctions in different systems and in the space shuttle because of the required redundancy, to make sure you don't, you know, system failure doesn't kill you. This stuff gets really complex. >> Yeah. >> And then you go to fly the vehicle and the accidents we've had with Challenger and Columbia, you know, those were, you know, Challenger accident, nothing you can do about. Columbia accident, nothing you could have really done about it. I mean, something falls off on lift-off, puts a hole in the wing, the vehicle disintegrates on entry. But we've had other problems in space. On my first launch, we got a master alarm on on lift-off, if I remember correctly. I think it was a had to do with an RCS jet, one of the reaction control system jets. On my third flight, where I was I was the commander, this is something we never trained for, was one of the solid rocket boosters. They're They're designed to burn, so they're solid propellant. You can't turn them off. They're designed to burn out exactly the same time. They're poured to very high tolerances in Ogden, Utah at a company called Thiokol. And they're supposed to flame out 2 minutes and 5 seconds into the lift-off. Flame out at the same time. Well, in our case, one one got to chamber pressure of zero before the other one and the space shuttle started rolling. >> Cuz that's not even >> Yeah, not even not even thrust, started rolling and yawing. And I was about to hit the button to take over manually to then try to correct this and then I gave it another second and then we got back in what it it it To me, it seemed like we were about to kind of go out of control. >> Yeah. >> And then it corrected itself and we were fine. Never practice that in the simulator in those thousands of hours. So that was one of the unknown unknowns. >> But but practicing all that stuff in the simulator is giving you the meta skill of not freaking out, not overreacting. Like it really what you practiced for is the the wait and see that you did there instead of perhaps you could have made it worse by immediately asserting manual control. >> Could have, but I'm pretty good at flying things. So I it would have been fine. >> Yeah. But there's a quote I heard from the Canadian astronaut Chris Hadfield where he says there's no problem in space so bad that you can't make it worse. >> That is true. >> Yeah. >> So Chris Kraft was the first flight director and then was the head of flight crew operations. You see him in a lot of like movies Apollo 13 and you know, those he had this saying, "When you don't know what to do, don't do anything." >> Yeah. >> And I've used that >> Yeah. >> you know, through my career, even sometimes my political career. Is that take a beat. >> Mhm. >> Let's think about this. This is all just don't jump to some conclusion. >> Yeah. Pause and reflect. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Not too long. >> Try to figure it out. >> Yeah. >> You know, and there's some things that require like an immediate, you know, response like you know, space shuttle's about to go out of control. >> [snorts] >> And there's others, you know, that you can you can wait on, you can think about, you can reflect on. Every decision should not require the same amount of contemplation and reflection. >> Yeah. >> Uh some do. Some you can let's you know, let's think about this for a week. >> Yeah, and know knowing the difference of what requires that sort of immediate concrete action and then what it requires a little bit of restraint. >> Yeah. You know, you're over Iraq and the missile's coming at you. You know, how much time to think about it? >> Yeah. >> You know, so you know, I think about that a little bit in my in my new job here. >> [laughter] >> Well, okay. So I as far as I know, Marcus Aurelius never goes to space. Maybe maybe we but >> meditations? >> This is meditations. I'm curious what you thought. I'm going to read you these quick passages cuz it sounds like he has. I wonder if it jives with your >> I don't think he went to space. >> Yeah, probably >> Unless there's some buried spaceship somewhere under Rome. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Now we're going to get into conspiracy theory territory. Okay, these are all in book seven, three in a row. So I wonder what he's doing as he's deciding these thoughts. He says, "To watch the courses of the stars as if you revolved with them, to keep constantly in mind how the elements alter into one another. Thoughts like this wash off the mud of life below." Then the next one he says, "Plato has it right. If you want to talk about people, you need to look down on Earth from above. Herds, armies, farms, weddings, divorces, births, deaths, noisy courtrooms, desert places, all the foreign peoples, holidays, days of mourning, market days, all mixed together, a harmony of opposites." And then the last one he says, "Look at the past, empire succeeding empire, and from the from that extrapolate the future, the same thing. No escape from the rhythm of events." Which is why observing life for 40 years is as good as a thousand. Would you really see anything new? Uh then he actually there's some more here, but this strikes me as very similar to what I've heard astronauts talk about with what they call the overview effect. >> Yeah. Well, I think I mean, imagine if Marcus Aurelius knew that we were one galaxy in a universe of two trillion galaxies. Probably wouldn't have changed, you know, his view on this, but he certainly realized that to some extent we're kind of insignificant >> Yeah. >> in the big picture. He's referencing the stars and how things are going to happen that are whether it's over a thousand years or 40 years, things are going to happen that are, you know, just the way it is, outside of our control. >> Yeah. >> And you know, in there, I haven't read all of Meditations, but I've read pieces of it. You know, there are there are things that we can, you know, have an effect on. >> Yeah. >> But, you know, you know, we're seeing history repeat itself. >> Mhm. >> Uh we've seen that through a couple thousand years of history. >> One morning I went for a run. We were in Greece and I got up sort of to the top of the Acropolis and I'm looking down and and you go, "This is probably what he's talking about." Like this he's seen so much of the civilized world. >> Yes. >> Um >> Is there any evidence of Marcus Aurelius actually going to Greece? >> yeah. >> Okay. >> And also traveled incredibly >> Yeah, he traveled a lot. >> Dies in Vienna. He writes in Greek. >> time in Germany. >> It's crazy. Uh like when you when you realize how big the Roman Empire was, it sort of blows your mind that one human being was responsible for all this given the communication that he >> he spent a lot of time outside of Rome. Like on the road. >> Yes. Uh >> And camps and fighting wars and >> Um almost all of it. Yes. There's another line of Meditations is just life is warfare and a journey far from home. >> Yeah. >> And I think he means that literally and figuratively. >> Yes. >> But yeah, you you get the sense like that bird's-eye view that he's taking I mean, how high up could he have really ever gotten? Not that high. I mean, >> Probably some some mountain Probably some mountain in near Vienna, right? Or yes, northern what's now northern Italy, maybe in the Alps. >> Yeah, what the ancients would have how much it would have blown their mind to see like the blue marble photograph or to know that a human was on the like taking off from the >> he probably >> out of space. >> He probably didn't He He probably thought the Earth was flat. >> Maybe. >> He Marcus Aurelius was almost certainly a flat-earther. >> [laughter] >> Certainly his son was. >> Yes. >> Uh he had some other problems. >> Yeah, he had a lot of problems. >> Yeah, so when, you know, I remember the first time I saw the Earth as a big round ball just floating there in this blackness. And the you know, the your initial reaction I think for most of us is like, holy [ __ ] >> Yes. >> I mean, we we live on an island in our solar system and there's like there's no place else to go. >> Yeah. >> You know, we're all not like, you know, moving to Mars someday. That's not like the reality for any of us. Yeah. Any of us that matters. And yeah, I know like Elon wants to put this like thinks, you know, civilization is going to human civilization is going to one day colonize Mars. You know, he said it was going to happen by 2022. That didn't happen. >> I think he really he said it was no question it would happen by then. >> Yes. Yeah, no question. >> We're going to have people living on Mars and they're going to stay and we're going to eventually have an atmosphere and we're going to blow up nuclear weapons in the Martian atmosphere. And by the way, we need this because a single planet species doesn't survive because that's the history of species on Earth. Well, also nobody else no other species, dinosaurs were not engineering themselves out of a problem. >> Yeah, what if we just didn't screw it up here? >> Yeah, just don't screw it up here. It's always going to be easier to survive on Earth regardless of what happens including the big rock. >> Yeah. >> Or the, you know, the worst pandemic. It's always going to be easier to survive on Earth. I mean, Mars is a [ __ ] planet. It is not not a place that we want to move to. We want to go and explore, we want to come back. >> Yeah. >> But you really do get this sense that kind of the almost the insignificance of you know, the the universe is 13.9 billion years old we think, by the way. We don't know for sure. May have been around a lot longer. You know, we we're we're figuring out more all the time about astrophysics, about the nature of existence. But my, you know, my four trips to space I really, you know, get a um, you know, kind of a deep-seated view that we have to do a better job taking care of this place. There's no There's no other option. >> And it's it's interesting cuz he talks about this as the emperor of Rome, this idea that like we're all sort of citizens of this larger thing. We're all citizens of this world and we have these obligations and responsibilities to each other. Now, of course, as the the head of state of this thing, he has certain obligations and responsibilities and priorities. But you do get the sense that he's trying to by zooming out >> going like these borders are made up. >> Yeah. >> Like, you know, and again, you have a legal obligation to enforce them, but it doesn't mean that the person on the other side of that border has the same >> or doesn't matter and >> isn't >> Well, they might not also have They might not have the same legal obligation, either. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And you And by the way, you can't see any of those borders from space. >> Yeah. Yes. >> With one exception. >> Great Wall? >> No. That's a whole Chinese like to say it's the only thing you can see from space. >> What is >> That's [ __ ] The only border you actually see that's not a river is the southern part of Israel. Because on one side it's desert. >> Ah. >> The other side, it's cultivated land. >> Right. >> So, there's a straight line. And that's the only place I can think of that you physically can see a border during the day. >> Yeah. >> And why I say during the day is because at night you sort of see >> North and South Korea. >> Yes, and the United States and Canada. >> [laughter] >> Sometime you know, sometimes when you look at it you're in the United States, you're like, I wonder if the Canadians need more electricity. But the reason it looks like that is because most of the Canadian population live within 100 miles of the US border. >> Right. >> Like all 20 million of them basically live on the US border. >> Yeah, yeah. Canada goes way up. >> It does. >> And nobody's there. >> Nobody's there. >> Canada and Australia are kind of like that. >> Yes. It's wild to look at at night. I mean, Pyongyang looks like an island in an ocean because there's nobody else that has have lights in North Korea. >> [gasps] >> And then you you know, you fly over places like um Times Square, fly over New York City, the brightest spot on Earth. And I think second would probably be the strip in Vegas. And then in the middle of Tokyo would probably be my top three bright spots on Earth. >> Well, then to go to Marcus's point about history, I mean, what is interesting is that 100 years ago, that wouldn't have been the case. >> Nope. >> 150 years ago, not and wouldn't have been the case. Like I mean, there parts of Texas here that less than 100 years ago didn't have electricity. >> Yeah. >> And and so to think about how, you know, in the big clock of all of human history >> Yeah. >> what a tiny sliver a lot of these things we take for granted actually are. >> 120 years ago, Arizona wasn't a state. >> Yeah. >> And um very few people lived there. Um I mean, native a lot of native tribes. Things change and they're changing fast right now. >> Yeah. >> And it's going to be a you know, amazing thing to watch, you know, what happens in the next, you know, couple decades. >> Yeah, you could look at everything that's happening in the world and be really excited. You could look at everything that's happening in the world and be absolutely horrified. >> Yes. >> Kind of somewhere in the middle probably is the the right view, but there's a >> I think there are a lot of people out there that are very anxious, >> Yeah. >> apprehensive about the future. About whether they're going to have a job, whether if you're a young person, whether you're going to be able to afford a place to live. >> Mhm. >> You know, whether you're going to afford a family. You know, these are issues that weigh on me, you know, a lot in my job cuz I'm you know, supposed to be trying to figure out ways to fix this. >> If you're 21 right now, what have you seen work really well in your lifetime? You've kind of seen people screw it up over and over and over again. Largely at your expense. Not so much at their expense, but at your expense. >> Yeah, often the same people. >> Yeah. >> Right? Crash the car, get back in, crash it again. >> Yeah, same same guy. >> Yeah. Put it on the tab. Put it on the grandkids' tab. >> Yep, 39 trillion. You know, people don't seem to care that it could be 50 trillion in what? Decade? Actually less than that. We got to address some of these problems in our country in a serious way. >> Yeah. >> You know, we have an election coming up. You know, my my hope is people see that. And you know, you got to some point you got to take the keys away from grandpa. >> Yes. It's not fair. It's a lot to put on a generation, and yet there's no alternative. Do you know what I mean? Like ignoring it's not going to make it go away. >> No, it is not going to go away. And then at the same time we have, you know, with innovation and technology, we have things that are going to change rapidly. >> Yeah. >> You know, AI is going to replace people in, you know, certain jobs. We'll have a demand for other jobs. The people have an option. We got to how do you figure out a way to make sure these folks that lost their job have the training and know about these other things that they could do. >> Yeah. >> And what do we do for people that are just displaced and don't have an option? How are they going to afford their lives? We got to think about that. And then the energy demand is is just skyrocketing right now. >> When what do you What do you do when the political institutions have proven themselves to not be up to these tasks over and over and over again and to not work and to not necessarily show themselves as reflecting the will of the people. Like I I just thought about this this week cuz it was just announced I live out here in rural Texas and like Amazon just bought 1,300 acres and they they want to build a data center, right? And >> That's not why people moved out to the country. >> Yeah, right where I live. >> Like how close? >> 10 minutes. >> Yeah, like I mean you get well, 10 minutes you're probably okay. If you're like 2 minutes, are you going to walk outside and there's going to be like 60 decibels of noise? >> Noise, light pollution, traffic, also just how rates >> is is is your electric bill going to double because of this data center? >> Well, and then illustration of the other problem we have it's like they were going to build a housing development and Amazon came in bought out the housing development and said, "No, no, we're going to put a data center." So, it could have been 2,000 houses which desperately need, instead it's going to be this. >> Yeah. >> And and I remember going like my first thought was like, well, I obviously don't want this. I want to get involved and not make it happen and then going like, even if everyone around here doesn't want it, can the political system, can the can the representatives who are supposed to listen to the will of the people, will that system actually work? Like I I see so much of our problem is that like the political system which our founders designed to be responsive to the people? To the people. It isn't doing that and then that energy has to find other places to go. >> Well, in some cases like in in Arizona, we had the same issue happen. One case I think it was in Chandler and the other was in Tucson where Gabby and I live where the data center came in, they wanted to you know, build there and the didn't get approved cuz the people didn't want it. >> Right. >> And if the people don't want it, it shouldn't go there. >> Yeah. >> They should find another place. >> Right. >> Now, I'm trying to address that issue with in my job in the Senate with legislation to try to set the conditions where the community can benefit, the data center company can benefit because we're not going to this technology is not going to go away. >> Right. >> And we want to be the leaders, we don't want the Chinese to be the leaders. There's an advantage to us as a nation as a country and all of us should be able to benefit. We don't want like the top 1% to be the people that benefit from this. >> Sure. >> That has gone sideways on us too long. But so we've got to, you know, make, you know, smarter decisions here. >> Yeah. >> But your community shouldn't get stuck with this data center if people don't want it. >> Yeah, right. >> There There's some place in the country that will be happy to have that data center. >> Yeah. >> They need to go there. >> Yeah, and and I mean just watching some of these things play out as I've lived here over the last decade or so is you're like, you know, they wanted to build some I forget what it was like a trash facility or something and then all of a sudden the people were like, well, why won't the Texas Environmental Commission do something about it? And it's like the one that you neutered and gutted because you you thought that's big government. It's like Look, I get not being somewhat suspicious of big government. I don't want government messing with my life, but at the same time if you don't have institutions >> Yeah. >> that can do things, then you basically only have corporations who can do things and they don't care that much about regular people. Their job isn't to care about people. Their job is to care about shareholder value. >> We're We're seeing that a lot at the federal level, too, not just here. I mean, I just got into it with the EPA administrator over a smelter in Arizona that emits I think it's was 12 tons of lead into the atmosphere every year and it has a elementary school that's a couple miles away. You could see the smelter from the elementary school. And the There's technology available to clean the lead and arsenic out of the exhaust and it was rather expensive and they didn't do it. They asked for a waiver because this administration set up a process that didn't exist before where they could uh send a letter to the EPA that then that just went right to the White House. Straight line, just passed through, EPA doesn't get a say. And then Donald Trump could decide whether or not to approve the waiver. The White House decides. And the waiver was approved. The thing that cleans out the lead and arsenic didn't get put in. And then these kids have to, you know, breathe the breathe this in. Now, I've I've had conversations now with the company that owns the mine and the smelter. They're going to try to work with us to come up with a solution because we can't have these kids breathing this. But this is the process that this administration set up. So, even though we have an EPA that's try to protect people's health, not right now in this administration. What comes first is profits and donations. >> Right. >> You know, how how many people have made donations to they've joined Mar-a-Lago or they bought into the meme coin or the stable coin or they made donations to MAGA Inc. the super PAC. And when people make big donations like that, they generally expect something for it. >> Mhm. >> And we're seeing that over and over and over again. >> Yeah, it it feels like the opportunities for and then the examples of corruption are almost too staggering for people to wrap their heads around. Like it's it's interesting that that isn't a bigger story. >> I think folks are just like overwhelmed. >> Yeah. >> I mean, the president is suing the federal government for $50 billion. 50 billion, not million. $50 billion and he says the federal government is probably going to settle with him. >> Right. >> He is the guy who decides whether or not the federal government settles his $50 billion lawsuit. So, he's on both sides of the lawsuit. >> they call that self-dealing. >> Yeah, yeah. I think I think there's a word for that. There's a couple words >> Yes. that. >> Yeah. >> So, he'll make the decision whether or not to settle, and he'll probably settle for Maybe he settles for I don't know, 30 billion cuz he's a reasonable man. >> Cuz he doesn't want to steal too much. >> Yeah, I mean, that's $30 from the taxpayer into his bank account. That's what he's looking to do. >> Yeah. >> Can we stop him? I mean, we're going to try. Right now, we don't have the, you know, the levers to do that. And certainly this Department of Justice is just like they just do what he wants at this point. >> I do think that was clearly the big miss of the founders is that they assumed that there would always be the check of personal honor and virtue in the highest levels of leadership. >> Virtue, virtue, a little bit of wisdom, >> shame, >> a little bit of shame, a little bit of temperance. They assumed those things. >> Yeah. >> They assumed most leaders would be like Marcus Aurelius. >> Yeah. >> Uh or George Washington. >> Mhm. >> But they did also in the Federalist Papers, but they also wrote about >> Right. >> the fear that at some point somebody would come along and could just flip this whole thing upside down. >> Yeah. >> We have checks and balances. I don't know if you saw King Charles' speech to the joint session of Congress a couple weeks ago. So, he gave this speech and he was good speech. 25 minutes, touched on a lot of points, made some jokes. Uh at one point he he talks about the importance of checks and balances. >> Yeah. >> And I was shocked because everybody in the chamber was clapping. >> Yeah. >> And I'm thinking to myself, >> You guys are the checks and balances. >> You guys Some of you guys over there are not doing the checks and balance part of the job. >> Yeah. >> I mean, we're trying, but we're in the minority. >> Right. >> I mean, it's really the majority, you know, has has to step up and really speak truth to power and tell a leader, whether it's a president or the, you know, CEO of the company, you got to tell somebody when, you know, what they're doing doesn't make any sense or they're off track or, you know, you you just can't do this. >> Yeah. And I agree with you on everything, that is illegal. >> do not do that. >> Yeah, I right. >> They're not doing a lot of that. >> Yeah. >> And it's really disturbing. >> What is it? Is it a belief that someone else will do it? It There there seems to I I was talking to Adam Kinzinger one time and he said it's like Congress believes there's a super Congress. >> [laughter] >> Some people think we have like a giant button we can like >> press and stop things. We don't There's no button. >> Yeah. >> This president has He's got full control over the base of the Republican Party in a way that no president in my lifetime has ever had, Democrat or Republican. >> Yeah. >> Nobody has commanded that type of control over the base. And he is very willing and able to use that against anybody that he perceives as a political foe or enemy. I mean, he doing it to me. >> Yeah, sure. >> right now he I said something he didn't like, he said I should be hanged, executed, prosecuted, tried to throw me in jail. The indictment didn't work. Who knows if he's going to try again. Then they tried to reduce me in rank and take away my pension. So, I sued Pete Hegseth. So, this, you know, I I have no problem fighting back. >> Yeah. >> And I'm not going to give up and because there's a lot at stake here. >> Sure. >> You know, First Amendment rights of 2 million retired service members. What I think is there's a lot of members of Congress in his party that just know that he can end their careers. >> Right. >> And they think their career pretty valuable to them. >> Yeah. >> Unfortunately. >> Yeah. >> You know, none of us should think we matter so much that the world comes to an end if we lose our job in the United States Congress. >> Yeah. >> The problem is there are a lot of people that think they are so important >> Yeah. >> that the our country would collapse if they were not there. And that is not true. >> Yeah. >> Country will have the same problems it has right now. It'll recover if, you know, rando, you know, senator from whatever state, you know, is no longer in his seat. >> He's only a one-term senator instead of a two-term senator. >> Yeah. I mean, it's not going to it's not going to matter. So, they shouldn't >> And isn't that the point of the six-year term? Is that you >> Yeah, it wasn't supposed to matter. >> That's right. >> You have Yeah. >> Always make the decision based on what's right. >> Right. >> Which is what I always try to do. And I don't You know, I never wanted this job anyway. >> [snorts] >> You know, I was I I had a great job. And then my wife gets shot in the head. And then she resigns. And then I find myself in a position where, you know, I before the election in 2018, a woman comes up to me. I was like at a get-out-the-vote rally. And she says, "Hey, my son is Down syndrome. And I'm terrified he's going to lose his health insurance. Would you please consider running for the US Senate?" Without that conversation, I would not be in the Senate right now. And that was that was uh November 2018. So, this was not something I ever wanted to do. And then I, you know, ran in 2020, ran again in 2022. And, you know, you know, here I am, you know, just trying to solve some of these problems that we have. >> Well, it's a reminder that this isn't a game. I think that's the other problem. Is that everyone is like, "Yeah, it's bad. Yeah, I disagree." But like, there's consequences for gutting USAID. There's consequences for uh cutting off health care. There's consequences for these decisions. >> for going to war with Iran with no strategic goal, with no plan. >> Yeah. >> With no way to get it Now now the president finds himself in a really tough spot yeah trying to figure out how you get out of this. We have 13 dead Americans. We got other people who are injured. We have thousands of innocent Iranians that have been killed including at least 150 kids in a school. And the president's trying to figure out like what do I do? Didn't think the Strait of Hormuz is going to be closed so gas prices are really really high. There was a woman that we helped her daughter get her health care back after she got kicked off of Medicaid. Kid gets kicked off of Medicaid and shouldn't have been. And it was all at the beginning during all that DOJ stuff and got her back on what we call it Medicaid in Arizona it's called access. Got her back on it. She sent me a text couple weeks ago. And just really sort of felt like it was she was in a panic because she says now she can't afford to drive her kid to get the cancer treatments cuz the round trip is 300 miles and she can't afford to put gas in the car. >> Right. >> So we're trying to figure out, you know, get her get her some help here but how many people across our country are experiencing the same thing? >> Yeah, I think to the average person you hear okay, now they're moving ships here and that just feels like these set pieces. But there are sailors on those ships and they have family like the these are human the the tragedy of war ultimately is that these are human beings being moved around to get a little negotiation leverage or to send a point or make a signal. I'm writing about Vietnam right now. Actually I wanted to ask you about this cuz I feel like you're the perfect person to give me some insight on this. So I'm writing about doing a book on Admiral Stockdale. >> Oh. >> So >> Who I knew. >> You Oh, well now I have a million >> on a went I was with him to to Switzerland once when I was a test pilot. >> Okay. >> Cuz he was a you know, he was part of the SETP, Society of Experimental Test Pilots. >> Yes, right. Cuz he he he went and taught at Test Pilot School. >> Yeah, as I did. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I was an instructor there before I was an astronaut. >> Well, I'll tell you a funny story about him at Test Pilot School. Maybe you know, maybe don't. But August 2nd, he's up on a Crusader flight and gets flown over in South China Sea. Hey, one of our ships is being attacked. So, he flies over there and he sees the PT boats. People don't think that the the incident in the Gulf of Tonkin happened. The first day it did. Wasn't a big attack, but there's an attack. And then he he flies back. There's 2 days between. And then on the 4th >> And he's the air wing commander at this point. >> Yes, yes. And so then the the second incident in the Gulf of Tonkin, they fly out there. There's nothing there. He he says, "We're shooting at ghosts or something like that, right?" Uh there's nothing there. And then so he he lands back later that night. And then when he wakes up the next day, they go, "Hey, you know, we're we're leading the the strikes tomorrow, the the reprisal strikes." And he famously says, "Reprisal for what?" So, it's this complicated incident. I'm trying to wrap my head around both the the the mindset and the responsibility, the obligation. So, he gets ordered to lead a strike, basically the beginning of the Vietnam War, over They're not illegal orders, cuz the president can give these orders. But the pretext for them is he has some insight that they're funda- fundamentally flawed. Right. How do you think about a dilemma like that for someone in his position? >> Well, I mean, for him I mean, it becomes a bigger question that often a guy even in his role as an air wing commander, not up to him to decide what country we go to war against and what country we don't. Right? The the the decision to use combat power to achieve some larger geopolitical outcome or purpose relies with the president. >> civilian decision. >> Civilian. It lies with the president. So, you know, that is a, you know, struggle that I think, you know, people in Admiral Stockdale's at this time, Captain Stockdale, >> Commander, yeah, I think yeah, maybe Captain. >> been a commander, probably a captain. >> has to has to deal with. It's something we all have to deal with. >> Right. >> Everybody who puts on the uniform and you know, like me, I dropped bombs 30, you know, something times. I flew 39 combat missions. You know, I you know, sunk ships. I, you know, bombed buildings and tanks and there's always like the, you know, the ethical struggle. >> Right. >> Like, is this the, you know, right thing to do? That's different than the the situation that myself and five of my colleagues were outlining >> Right. >> you know, to, you know, troops about illegal orders or unlawful orders. Members of the military have a responsibility to follow all lawful orders. You know, written down in the law of war manual and in the UCMJ, you do not follow illegal orders. Those are the things that are obvious >> Yeah. >> to troops, sailors, you know, soldiers, Marines that are obviously, you know, against the law. They're not the big like geopolitical, you know, questions about, you know, whether we take our country to war against another country. >> Right. >> But, you know, any commander is, you know, often going to be, you know, wondering because he's the guy who has to lead the troops. >> Yeah. >> And as an air wing commander, you know, he's out front in the first airplane. And he's got to motivate these guys and often and he's going to have to explain this stuff and they're going to ask him questions. And it's his responsibility to >> Motivate and inspire. >> to motivate, inspire and get, you know, get behind, you know, the decisions that are made by our political leaders. >> Yeah. >> You know, that's that's a different thing than the thing we were talking about. >> No, no, I know. It's It's a cuz I think people your average civilian is probably thinking, well, if you don't agree, just don't But that's not You don't agree. The system would not work >> It doesn't work. Yeah. If you don't Agreeing or not agreeing, that's not an option. >> Yeah. >> You've got a responsibility when you swear an oath to, you know, to to defend the Constitution. And when you get sworn into the military, you know, as an officer or listed person, you know, your responsibility is to follow the orders of your senior officers and the president of the United States. Now, you know, what happened later in the Vietnam War, the My Lai Massacre, >> Yes. >> you know, when a company commander, you know, tells his troops, "We're going to kill everybody." >> No mercy, no quarter? >> Or no quarter. What Pete Hegseth said, which I questioned him about this on the Senate Armed Services Committee a couple weeks ago. Like, "What did you mean?" >> Yeah. >> And I'm going to give you another chance because it was asked of him the day before. When you say no quarter, what that means, and it's defined, >> Mhm. >> you know, by the US military, that means there are no prisoners. You kill prisoners. I gave him the opportunity to clarify what he meant. He refused to do that. So, he's stuck with what he said originally, which was no quarter. That's not who we are as a nation. We've never been that way. We can't go down We can't be the Russians. >> Right. >> You know, who are brutal and commit war crimes. But, you know, he decided to, you know, stick with that. So, that's that's a whole different problem. But, no quarter would be an example of an illegal order. >> We're going to destroy your entire civilization. Yeah, things like that. >> is one, too. And by the way, even saying a threat of a war crime >> Yes. >> is not allowed. >> Right. >> Even the threat. >> Yeah. >> First of all, doing it is is a war crime. >> Yeah. >> You know, destroying an entire civilization would be a war crime, genocide. >> Yeah. >> Threatening genocide is also against the law. The laws that we have >> If you have a a large arsenal nuclear weapons, you say, "Give me all your stuff or I'm going to drop nuclear weapons on you." You haven't committed the war crime yet, but you are using the threat of the war crime and the uncertainty of whether you'll do it or not to to do something illegal and >> Yeah, that's that's also against the law. >> Yeah, I'm fascinated with this question that what he must have wrestled with because, you know, he was there is incredibly complicated and I'm sure that takes time to work through this, but to then spend all these years as a prisoner of war >> Yeah. >> as you staying loyal to a country that had, you know, done something imperfect or outright wrong. It it makes it makes what he did and what he went through almost more inconceivable and superhuman. Like the the dark nights of the soul that he must have had, knowing that he is a pawn in this war that was, you know, >> And then as a senior officer though >> You can't blame him that on. >> Yeah. >> I mean, he did like a I mean, from what I understand about, you know, him as a POW. I mean, he did a fantastic job of leading you know, all these men from different services and took on that role, you know, as a as a senior captive there at the Hanoi Hilton, including the guy who I served in the Senate seat, John McCain, who probably was shot down, I don't know, a year and a half year and a half later. But, it was interesting experience to spend I spent a couple days with Admiral Stockdale and his wife in Switzerland. It's two incredible people. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, he he he really was. Yeah, great American. >> Uh one one of the You're writing a book about him? >> I'm doing a biography of Stockdale. >> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. >> Including his time as the VP candidate for Ross Perot. >> probably going to fast forward at the end of that, but did you know at test pilot school he taught John Glenn? >> Oh, I did not know that. >> Yeah, John So, maybe I did. John Glenn was a a much more experienced pilot cuz he'd flown in Korea and World War II. So, he took Stockdale on his first cross-country night flight, and then Stockdale taught him physics cuz he had a better engineering and math background. Stockdale >> Stockdale did. >> Yeah, Glenn was more of just your sort of >> Yes. >> natural pilot that that to go to the next level had to kind of learn a lot of stuff that he didn't know. >> think John Glenn had a like a degree in engineering. >> No, didn't go to like a service academy or anything. >> but most of the students at the US Navy test pilot school, you know, have a at least a bachelor's degree in engineering or maybe physics, sometimes math. That's about how deep we we go. At least when I was there. >> Yeah. >> You know, and I uh you know, I it was it was a great tour for me because I did get to be like a teacher. >> Yeah. >> Not only a flight instructor in my case three different air kinds of airplanes teaching all different kinds of things, but actually in a classroom with a piece of chalk. >> Yeah. >> And I taught classes on like transonic flying qualities like and aerodynamics and you know, how airplanes you know, flight control and performance in that region between about 0.9 and 1.1 Mach. >> Yeah. >> It's that little band where things change, you know, rapidly as you accelerate or decelerate through Mach 1 through the speed of sound. >> Yeah. >> was a good it was a good experience to so I understand I mean certainly I don't understand what a middle school teacher goes through. But I have [snorts] a little bit of a sense of what it's like to be in a classroom with a piece of chalk and the chalkboard. >> Yeah, I think people maybe from Top Gun and stuff think that the fighter pilots are kind of like these cowboys just like sort of really good at doing this thing and like it sort of skips over the incredible technical expertise and mathematical and physics background required to [snorts] do it at that that level. >> Yeah, a lot of academics behind especially being a test pilot. >> Yeah. >> Fighter Weapons School little bit different. They're actually teaching people how to teach at the highest level of you know aerial combat. >> Yeah. >> The air-to-air portion of it not what I used to do. I was the air-to-ground guy. But at the two test pilot schools the military ones here it's uh you know a lot of heavy academics you know physics propulsion engineering aerodynamics uh electronics electronic warfare radars all that stuff. >> Yeah, all that woke stuff. >> Yeah, all that woke stuff. All that science that science-y stuff >> We don't need that. >> people don't believe anymore. >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, the thing about science is science doesn't care if you don't believe in science. It's still there. >> By the way, neither does history, right? Like you can you can make up whatever you want. It doesn't change what happened. It doesn't change some of the sort of iron laws and patterns of history and >> But some people will try to change history. >> Yeah. >> They will try really really hard. >> Mhm. >> They will go all the way to Fulton County, Georgia and send the director of national intelligence to try to figure how do we change the history? >> It's wild. >> Yeah. >> You want to go next to her I got some books for you. >> Yeah. >> Hey.