Rick Beato: Greatest Guitarists of All Time, History & Future of Music | Lex Fridman Podcast #492

The following is a conversation with Rick Beato, legendary music educator, interviewer, producer, songwriter, and a true multi-instrument musician playing guitar, bass, cello, and piano. Rick, with his incredible YouTube channel, celebrates great musicians and musical ideas and helps millions of people, including me, fall in love with great music all over again. This is the Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here's Rick Beato. You had, I think, an incredibly fun and diverse beginning to your music journey. I heard somewhere that one of the things that made you fall in love with music was listening to guitar solos, some epic guitar solos. What's an early guitar solo that that you remember? You connected to spiritually, musically, where you're like, "Wow, there's magic in this." Well, the first solo that I learned was "Hey Joe." It was actually a good beginner song, you know, when I first started playing the guitar, because it has pretty simple chords, right? So, it's like E, C, G, D, A. And I learned the solo, and I figured out this like it's this pentatonic scale, E minor pentatonic scale. They'll do I didn't know that's what it was called, but learned this thing and it's like whoa, he's just in this one shape here. Now, there was no you couldn't go look anything up. You just if you could figure out the notes, you noticed that there was a little pattern to it. And then I I got so obsessed with it, and I showed my younger brother John, who started playing guitar right at the same time I did. So, I was 14, he was 11. And I would play rhythm for him for 5 minutes while he would solo over "Hey Joe." And then as soon as I'd start soloing, he'd throw the guitar down, then we'd get in a fight. And so, my mom eventually was like, "What is going on here?" And I was like, "John won't play rhythm." >> [laughter] >> "John won't play rhythm for me." She's like, "Okay, I'll play rhythm for you. What What are the chords?" And I was like, "Okay, it's like E, C, G, D, A." And so, my mom would literally play rhythm for 20 minutes while I'd play. >> #parenting That's amazing. [laughter] I When I When I look back on it now, my mom's been gone for 10 years now. When I look back on it, it's like my god, my parents were so cool. You should mention that "Hey Joe" and Hendrix in general is kind of known for the rhythm not being simple rhythm, just the chords that you mentioned. It's what you do with those chords. It's almost improvisation on the rhythm side. >> He did all these really cool chord fragments, riffs, and things like that. That's just part of his That's the Hendrix style. What do you think? I mean, many people put Hendrix as the greatest guitarists of all time. What do you think is part of that? >> You know, I I make lists. You do. If you somehow don't know who Rick Beato is, go on YouTube right now and watch your excellent interviews with musicians, watch your breakdown analysis of different songs, and watch your top 20 lists, where you're very opinionated, sometimes very openly critical about certain kinds of songs. It's fun. Opinions are fun. >> [laughter] >> But they do change, Lex, from day to day. But anytime I I do a list, if I do 20, I like to do 20 because that gives me some leeway to to throw in I have to throw in something that is so weird that people, you know, so something that a lot of people won't know, just to have it on there so I can at least introduce a you know, I'll put somebody like a Allan Holdsworth, who's a famous fusion guitar player. I'll throw in one of his solos or something, just some some oddball solo in there, just so that people as they're listening down the list will get exposed to something they would not necessarily get exposed to. Yeah, a lot of variety, but Hendrix Did you show up here today, Rick, >> [laughter] >> trying to tell me that Hendrix is not up there? I just I'm getting that vibe right now. >> No, I'm not I but I don't want to to say greatest, you know, you you can say, "Well, there there are people that that inspired Jimi Hendrix, Charlie Christian, older guitar players. Charlie Christian and Django Reinhardt were the first two really big and probably and Andrés Segovia were were three of the giants of the 20th century as far as guitar influences for most of the players that were to follow. So, here going to perplexity, Django Reinhardt was, of course, a jazz guitarist and composer active mainly in France and is widely regarded as one of the greatest guitarists in jazz history. So, Django was um well, there's a huge movement right now, gypsy jazz movement, as they call it, that is um kind of built around the style of music that he played back in the early 20th century. One of the things about Django is that he was in a fire, and he had two of his third and fourth fingers, so his his ring finger and pinky were essentially melted together. He had no use of them. Although, he could use them while he was chording, but a lot of these incredibly fast lines, he's just playing with two fingers. And it's amazing. >> [music] [music] >> That >> [laughter] >> What is that? So, that's gypsy jazz. >> That's gypsy jazz, yeah. Him, Stéphane Grappelli, who's a violinist that played with him a lot. How much of this is improvisation? Everything he's doing there is improvised. >> [music] >> Feels so free. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> And fun, like swing. And then that leads to you said pre-bop. So, bebop was a kind of jazz that was also influential on you and your own life journey, and it's this complicated, legendary kind of jazz that was very influential on the music that followed. So, what what was bebop? >> Well, after the the big bands were happening in the you know, from the '20s through the '40s, small people would go out and play in small groups that they would tour with. And Charlie Parker, who's really kind of the one of the main figures of early bebop, really developed the language of it. Usually, the music that they're playing over are standard chord progressions that that they would use as vehicles to improvise over. A lot of them were AABA form. And Charlie Parker created this language of improvisation that was far more sophisticated than the swing players of the big band era. You know, you think of people like Benny Goodman of that era. They would have really fast tempo songs, angular lines, chromaticism, things like that, chromatic notes. Chromatic notes are just notes next to each other on the fretboard. >> I like to think of it as connecting notes. >> Connecting. You're putting in more notes than are supposed to be there and so on, doing creating some interesting texture. Yeah, so that is one of the most difficult styles to master. Cuz all these things are a language. Yeah, blues playing, they're all just languages, right? It's like just like you'd learn any type of language. >> [snorts] >> Um my dad loved bebop. Now, when I was a little kid and he's listening to these bebop records, whether it's Charlie Parker Dizzy Gillespie, Oscar Peterson, Joe Pass, great jazz guitar player. I'm just hearing this stuff. I don't know any different. My dad was not a musician, but for some reason, he liked incredibly sophisticated music that was very technical and um I just heard it and just was like, "Oh, yeah, okay, cool." And not realizing that it was developing my ear, because I really bebop is one of the hardest to improvise in that style, in that language of bebop. It's very difficult to do. And hearing it as a kid is one of the things that I think enables you, just like languages, enables you to learn it as opposed to somebody that's never been exposed to it and tries to learn it as a teenager. It's I think it's very similar to learning languages, which kind of is like my theory on perfect pitch, that every child is born with perfect pitch, and they start to lose the ability around 9 months when people become culturally bound listeners, when babies do. They start out as citizens of the world, you know, they can they have the phone the the neural pathways to hear the sounds, the phonemes of all 6,500 languages spoken on Earth. But then around 9 months, they begin to lose that ability, and they when they become these culturally bound listeners. There's a great YouTube video with this woman, Patricia Kuhl. She's a language researcher. And I watched this, "The Linguistic Genius of Babies." I saw this in 2010, this lecture that she did, like a TED Talk. And she talks about this that kids they did a an experiment. They exposed kids to Mandarin three times a week for 25 minute sessions, just a person speaking Mandarin to these babies, and they were able to recognize the sounds the phonemes of that language even later on. And when I realized that my son Dylan had perfect pitch, I thought why does Dylan have perfect pitch but no one in my family had ever had perfect pitch and I thought well it must be because of the things I exposed to him prenatally and then in the first 9 months of his life because it's the only way I could explain it. We're going to return to Joe Pass. We got to go to Dylan. You mentioned Dylan. I guess it's in part one of the origin stories of uh you putting out videos into the world is the early videos you did with Dylan set of videos on his perfect pitch and for people don't know and maybe you can speak to what perfect pitch means. It's the ability to identify any note without a reference tone. So um you can play it doesn't matter how quickly they are that they can a person with perfect pitch can hear a note and immediately identify it or collection of notes. And taking a tangent upon a tangent, you also have a course on ear training. Yes, but my course is for relative pitch not to be confused with perfect pitch. Is it fair to say that relative pitch as far as the thing you would learn is more useful for musicians? Yes. Can you explain the difference between the two? Relative pitch is basically learning how to identify pitches relative to a stated tonic or something that you've heard or just relative to each other. If you hear a note and then you hear another note after it, you can recognize let's say it's a minor third interval. So if you're on the note A, the next note would be C. Mhm. So once you're given a reference note, you can use relative pitch to to identify the relative nature from one pitch to another. And of course intervals make up scales and intervals make up chords. Yep. And so that if you develop it tangibly, uh relative pitch, you can understand you can hear the music better. Yes. So what what does it take uh since we're taking a tangent on a tangent, what's uh what does it take to train your ear? What's uh a TLDR on the course before people go out and sign up? It's just practice basically. You start with intervals. Typically with small intervals like minor second, major second. So a minor second would be half step, major second would be whole step. Are you listening to the tone one after the other or two of them together? Both. So played separately it's called melodic intervals, right? Like a melody. Mhm. And harmonic intervals are played like a harmony together. So you have to be able to identify them both both ways. What's an early journey like? We'll give people a preview of what they should like what does that look like? What does what does practice look like? Well, my course it will play you an interval and then you identify it by clicking on whether it's you know, a major third or minor third or major sixth or minor sixth or perfect fifth tritone, whatever it is and and it will teach you gradually over time how to recognize all the intervals. So you listen to a melodic interval or harmonic interval, how quickly does the ear in the various age groups that we humans are in, how quickly does the ear learn the different intervals? Is it uh a week, two weeks, a month, two months, five years? I think you get pretty quickly within you know, if you practice within a couple months you can you can really make um a lot of progress on it if you practice daily. What benefit does it have to uh to you as a musician in general? Well, it's great if you want to hear a chord progression if you're trying to figure out a song and you can say oh that's going from the six minor chord to the four major to the five major to the one major and you can just identify it immediately and then you figure out what the first chord is then you know what the rest of the chords are cuz they're in relation to whatever that first chord is and for learning solos for example or learning melodies, being able to sound something out. Now do you recommend people couple that with uh music theory uh in ter- in terms of education the the education journey? They have to be taught together because these terms are really music theory, right? >> Mhm. And the those intervals major second, minor second, major third, minor third, perfect fourth. So as you're doing that and then you once you learn the intervals, the 12 intervals in an octave, then you you learn them both melodically and harmonically so played together and separate, then you learn chords and so then you learn to identify major, minor, diminished, augmented, suspended chords, things like that. Well, you're basically learning music theory at the same time with that cuz learning music theory is just the name of things in music. So there's the sound of things, Mhm. there's [clears throat] the name of things and then there's the haptic like playing the thing Right. Probably. So playing chords, playing scales. You have I believe a course on scales and on chords. >> Yeah. Okay, since we're doing the tangent, let's go. How do you recommend people There's a bunch of people listening to this that are curious about uh how they can start in playing guitar, maybe even playing piano and maybe playing other instruments. Although guitar of course is the greatest instrument of all time. What are the early steps of that journey? What what do you recommend people do in general? Well, if you're a beginner, uh getting a good beginner guitar course and learning first of all the open chords in first position. Uh a lot of songs can be played that way. A lot of old songs can be played that way. Maybe not new modern songs necessarily. So learning a few chords and with an eye towards maybe playing a song? >> Yeah. With an eye towards you learn you learn the chord shapes and you learn how to strum basic patterns to begin with. I think the first thing for learning guitar is actually how to position your fingers so that you you don't mute strings that you don't want to mute. Yeah. That's the hardest thing for people to do basically is to get their fingers arched to where they if you're playing a C major chord, your index finger's on the first fret of the B string and you have to have that open E string ringing there and it's hard for people to make those micro micro adjustments. You take it for granted like you've been playing guitar for I don't know how many years, forever, right? >> Forever, yeah. And you don't even think about stuff like that when you're playing a guitar solo. Every little thing that you do if you're playing your Comfortably Numb guitar solo, you have to out of midair strike the string that your finger's on to play the note and these are all fine adjustments that you're doing. I'm I'm just a hobbyist recreational player but it if wow, you're taking me all the way back. You're right. It's the haptic, the physical aspect of it is really tricky. Comfortably Numb is a good example. But if you do lead, you have to get a super clean sound. Now that's both when you're playing fast, you you want it to be super precise, but when you play slow, when you have one note and you're holding it and you're bending it, it better be really clean. Yes. And for that it's I guess you have to really place the finger in the right place plus there's the well, there's the calluses so it doesn't hurt. >> [laughter] >> And then the positioning of the string on the curvature of of the finger, where does it fall? Like how much do you bend the finger? >> to have enough of flesh on it to actually raise the raise the string in pitch. Yep. Otherwise it Yeah, cuz you're lifting it with part of a flesh. And of course you have to decide depends how OCD you are. Do you want to be like the perfect the proper musician or do you want to do a Hendrix? Uh so the thumb over the top. Way over the top, yes. And so like you if you have a fretboard here, I think the more like classical guitarists, the very proper perfect uh perpendicular alignment of the the fingertips to the fretboard versus like Hendrix is like fuck it. >> [laughter] >> You nerds. I'm going to do it. With the messiness is part of the magic. Of course like B.B. King is also kind of messy looking in terms of his positioning of the fingers, but his tone is incredibly clean. Yes, super clean. >> So like that teaches you that maybe any position can converge towards a super clean tone. You just have to figure it out. I think a lot of it has to do with how they wear their guitars. If you wear your guitar low, if you're Hendrix and you're wearing your guitar That's true. If you're wearing it lower lower, then you you can't get your fingers on top of it like that and the thumb acts as as a way to mute the lower strings from ringing if you're playing through a loud amplifier. So there's so many other micro adjustments when you're playing leads cuz you have to kind of mute the other strings that are so they don't ring out. Mhm. If you're play- playing the first note in Comfortably Numb in the solo at the end and you're at the ninth fret of the G string and you bend that, Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> if you bend that G string and you accidentally hit the B string under it, >> Mhm. you don't want that ringing. So you have to kind of angle your fin- index finger so it to mute to mute that. Yeah. >> these micro adjustments that you don't even think about, I mean you're not thinking about that like when you're playing it. You've done it so many times that these things are just part of your of your brain. That's why this is such a great brain developer for kids to learn instruments. Yeah, of course you have to solve that puzzle. Must be really frustrating in the beginning. Like holding a chord. Yes. Like all of them. And hurts too, right? If you're doing acoustic guitar. >> Not for that long though. For like a week. yeah. Couple weeks. Couple >> [laughter] >> I don't want to discourage anyone, you know, it's it's actually pretty easy to learn basic stuff. Right, but the the pain is temporary, I guess is the point I'm trying to make. It is. Uh so so what else? So the physical component, play a few chords, where does the journey continue if you're learning guitar? Well, then it's like if you play electric guitar, then you get into single note playing and stuff like that. That's where it gets, to me, where it gets really fun. You know, you have single note playing that with riffs, if you think of Back in Black, right? That has a a riff embedded in the in the actual melody. Or many songs that have riffs, the Hendrix stuff that has chordal riffs, and you're moving up the neck and and uh involving all the fingers and things like that. So there's it really depends on what you want to what styles you want to play. So you're thinking about song learning, so different components of song learning, so riffs in songs, lead in songs. And then you have finger picking, if you have Stairway to Heaven, songs like that. How about wanting to learn that? That involves finger picking because the you have to isolate certain notes of the chord and play two at together, you know, and multiple times. There's a few crossroads you have to get to select things. Uh so I guess you're speaking to the fact there's a if you're righty, there's a right hand you can use your fingers or you can use a pick. Correct. >> And that's the choice you make. And sometimes you use both. Cuz in Stairway to Heaven, you're using the fingers at the beginning or fingers and pick, hybrid, they call it hybrid picking, and then later on you're using the pick to flat pick the picking patterns. On the music theory front, do you recommend people learn scales and chords and like the theory of it? Uh later on, I would say. I wouldn't say necessarily right right off the bat. Mhm. I think I think learning songs is the is the first thing that you should do cuz it you want to keep people motivated. So you get them to like fall in love with music and playing. All right. And that takes a couple months, 3 months? Depends on how motivated they are. So you recommend practicing what, every day? >> Every day. My son, Dylan, when he started learning guitar a couple years ago, I said, "It's better to practice 10 minutes a day, 7 days a week, than to practice 1 day for an hour, which is roughly the same amount of time." Yeah. But it usually turns into something longer. But otherwise, like if you're busy life, you know, taking a day off, that day turns into a week, and then a week turns into a month, and all of a sudden you haven't touched the instrument for months. Which is why I leave my guitar on a stand all the time. So that if I walk by it, I'm like, "Okay, I'll just pick it up for a second." And then that second turns into 10 minutes and an hour, 2 hours. All right, we got to talk about this Dylan video. So this might be one of the earliest >> That's the first one. >> That's the first video on the channel. >> Well, it was it was actually before the channel cuz this actually blew up on Facebook, and then I put it on YouTube after. Uh so if it's okay, Yeah. Okay, Dylan, we're going to do the hardest ear training test of all time. Are you ready? Ready. >> [laughter] >> Now, I I just a quick backstory on this. I made this for my friend Shane's wife who wanted to see cuz Shane I was a a uh friend that I was producing, and he was there, and Dylan had come down the day in the day, and I said, "Oh, check this out." And I played this stuff. He's like, "That's amazing. Can you make a video so I can show my wife?" And I was on the way to a school board meeting cuz I was on the school board at Dylan's school, and I said, "Hey, Dylan, come downstairs. I want to make this video. It'll take 1 minute. Just need to do this thing for my friend Shane." And he's like, "I don't want to." And I said, "Come on, it's it'll take 1 minute." "I don't want to." So I said to my wife, I'm like, "Neena, would you tell Dylan to come downstairs? I want to do this video. It'll take 1 minute." She's like, "It Dylan, go downstairs." And he had a he has a mouthful of candy there cuz he was eating candy. So if you look at him, he's he's he's literally has a mouthful of candy while he's doing this. And what you're saying Facebook, uh it went quite viral. Yeah, like it I don't know, 80 million views, something like that. It had like 250,000 comments, something like that. Insane. How old is Dylan here? >> He's eight. 8 years old. >> Yeah. Can you actually give some more backstory about like how you discovered that Dylan has perfect pitch? So when Dylan was about two, he I was doing a FaceTime with my brother John, and and I was I was like, "Check this out, John." And I played the Stone in Love, Neil Schon's solo from Journey, and and I was like, "Check this out." And Dylan would sing along, and and my son my brother John was like, "Wow, Dylan can sing all the notes." And I was like, "Yeah." And then I played Black Dog, Zeppelin, and Dylan would sing that, and I was like, "Dylan's got a good ear." And then John and I were like, "Well, we have good ears, too. So maybe we could have done that when we were that age." So a couple of more years goes by. Well, he was about 3 and 1/2, and I'm in the car, I'm like, "Dylan, sing the Star Wars theme." And he sings it, and I'm like, "That's in the right key." And I checked. I played it on my phone. I was like, "Oh my gosh." And then I asked him, "Play sing the Superman theme." cuz we'd been listening to John Williams soundtracks the week before. And he sings that, and that was in the right key. And I asked him another song. So I turn the car around, I go back to the studio. I go to the piano, hit the note B flat, and Dylan says, "Star Wars." Star Wars starts on a big B flat major chord, but it's the note B flat is the main one that you hear. And then I played the note G, and he goes, "Superman." And that's the first note in the trumpet part of the of the Superman theme. And then I realized that he had perfect pitch, and then in 5 minutes I taught him the name of the 12 notes. Mhm. Which he already knew, but he just didn't know the names. Oh, so he just associated the names to the thing he know. What do you think is this in his mind? Cuz it's not just individual notes. He can like hear everything. >> Yeah. What is that? >> He doesn't see colors. He just says every note sounds completely different. Wow. Like you said, maybe it's a language thing. >> Yeah. Is there really is a he just learned the language. >> Yeah, the language. It's like it's like perfect um it's like native music fluency, if you think of it like that. So let's let's listen to some of this. Turn around. Here we go. As fast as you can. We're going to start with single notes, then we're going to do some intervals, then chords. Okay, here we go. A. C sharp. B flat. C. E. >> [music] >> A flat. Okay, good. Two notes at once. Here we go. C flat. Great. How about this? E flat A. Great. What about [music] this? E flat A flat. This is incredible. C B flat. And then how about this? >> [music] >> E flat. What is it? E E flat. Correct. >> [laughter] >> He's he's annoyed. He is annoyed. >> Yeah. This but the part of this when I play these next chords, that's really I think why the video went so viral, the next part of this where I play these super complex poly chords. Okay, I'm going to do some poly chords for you. These are really going to be hard. You ready? What's this? >> [music] >> C augmented over D flat augmented. Okay, sing a B flat. Very good. What's this chord? >> [music] [music] >> E flat over A flat major over A major. Great. Sing an F sharp. Excellent. What's this chord? >> [music] >> A minor over D flat major. Great. What's this chord? >> [music] >> E add nine over F major. He had nine over F major. So I had to look at my hand to make sure that that's what it was cuz they're all in inversions. So I think the reason that this went so viral is that the more that someone knew about music, the more that they shared the video because these poly chords so the people that were the best musicians were were would looked at it and was like, "Oh my god, you know, it's C augmented over D flat augmented." Um and the second chord was A flat major over A major, but they're both in inversion, right? So it was like a a first inversion A flat major chord, first inversion A major chord. And then A minor over D flat major, and then E add nine over F major. And for an 8-year I mean, for anyone, plus they're all close voiced. They're all just right next to each other. It's not like, you know, where you can hear them clear. It's all in the mid-range of the piano. So you have to really listen and and you have to di- he has to dissect each one. Like what are the notes being played there? And and what is like what's the theory? Cuz he's actually using music theory to dissect them. It must be in his brain those components of the chords all sound different, like very clearly different. >> Yes. It's truly incredible. The human mind is incredible. And so you're you're saying like some part of that is the things you hear in the first few months of life. I did a thing where I I played what I call high information music. High information music would be Bach, Well-Tempered Clavier, fugues, you an- anything Bach. And I would play the Well-Tempered Clavier, and I would play I have a uh friend who Turkish pianist who's one of the greatest improvisers I've ever heard. His name is Aydın Esen. And I would play Aydın's improvisations for Dylan. It had very sophisticated harmony and linear things in it. And Keith Jarrett and um mainly jazz classical and modern classical music. And then then we would play listen to rock music once he was born. I'm talking on my wife's stomach before Dylan was born starting at 15 weeks for 30 minutes a night. And then when Dylan was born, I would sit with him for an hour every morning and listen to music and I would look at him. In order for this for them to hear these phonemes apparently and develop this language or get the the language as acquisition has to involve the social brain. So when kids look at you you're when a baby's looking at you they're looking at your mouth and you're getting social cues from from that. And this is also another component of saying this is where this word stops or starts and stops. These are how this the phonemes are separated from one another. These are how they're connected. So I believe that all kids are born with perfect pitch and then around 9 months they begin to lose it. If you don't engage their social brain making these pitches know I never played pitches for Dylan I said this is a C this is a B flat this is a G. I just played complex high information music for him and and played with him. And then applies maybe even more generally to high information language. Yes. And it starts before they're born. I think I I saw some some of the these incredible scientists that work on the neuroscience and neurobiology psychology of language in early life. I think a big part is in the mother's stomach you're listening to the mother speak. >> Yes. That's right. So like that's that's how on the language side you're picking up the language already. That's right. And you're picking up the music musical language. So native music fluency you could call it. So if the mother's sitting back and listening to Bach and some bebop jazz you have a you have a pretty good chance. Much better chance. [laughter] Okay. All right. So that as we unwind our way back Joe Pass and bebop you were you were funny enough talking about what is bebop jazz and and people like Joe Pass and in your own life your dad was somehow listening to that kind of incredibly complex and sophisticated music. >> But wasn't a musician which is very weird. I we never my I have six siblings and we could never figure out why dad liked really sophisticated jazz. We just took it for granted at that time. >> Yeah, just took it for granted. And my dad passed away in 2004 and we never really talked about that but he and I used to listen to music together all the time. He'd put we'd put on a record I'd sit on one side of the room he'd sit on the other and not say a word listen through the whole side A I'd go flip it over listen to side B never say a word and then get up and go do stuff. And we did that all the time. And so the first time you impressed your dad was with the Joe Pass song right? And by the way we'll have to go to this song cuz people must have forgot cuz >> [laughter] >> people just think you're like a good communicator or something. They they don't realize how good you are at guitar how good you are actually a lot of instruments but guitar especially and there's this video the greatest guitar solo period. >> [laughter] >> Uh can you give me some context for this particular intricate complicated solo? Who's Joe Pass? >> Joe Pass was a guitarist he lived from 1929 to 1994. And he was one of the greatest bebop players and solo guitar player. So he made a record that this is off of called Virtuoso in 1973 that my dad gave me for Christmas when I was in 10th grade. And he said and this is not like my dad. My dad worked for the railroad he was very you know few words spoken born in 1919. He said if you ever learn to play guitar like this you've accomplished something with your life. And I was like what? So this let record state was unopened until about March after Christmas and then one day I was like okay I'll open it up and I put it on I start listening to it. And I was like woah this is kind of cool. And so I said I think I can figure out some of this stuff. So I figured out this thing. Is it by by ear mostly? >> by ear. I didn't know any of the chords or anything. If you can listen to a little bit here. >> go back to that brother bro brother to brother Gino Vannelli thing with Carlos Rios playing that stuff is incredibly hard. This I'm starting I don't know any of these chords. So I start out I don't even know what that chord is but I figured it out I I just and it's weird. I mean look at that weird bar there. So you were just finding um like playing around with the putting your fingers in the various positions. Right but trying every combination of fingers. I never played that chord. It's a weird looking chord. >> Yeah. And but I kept I moved my fingers around till I heard till where it sounded like oh that's it definitely. And I was looking at my hand I was like what is that? Had no idea what it was. So you were connected to the song. You were really connected to the music. >> Yeah. And so that that's why you can hear it's not necessarily did you even do you you didn't have perfect pitch and not even relative pitch. No I did not. >> Yeah. No I didn't know anything about intervals. I didn't know anything about music theory anything. This is all just You were just like playing around with different shapes that's amazing. >> look at that weird bar there. But then you get into these things >> [music] >> So that stuff there I could figure out. >> [music] >> And then this That stuff I could figure out and then these things here those are just inversions of an >> [music] >> but I didn't know that. I had heard Joe play that on the record. This is the last song on there. I listened to it a bunch of times and I started So you just replay over and over and over and over and you're like trying to replicate it. Yes and I'm memorizing every different chord shape. All chord shapes that I had never played before. Would you recommend people do something like that on a really complicated song? Yeah but there's so many YouTube videos that you can go and just learn it without having to Yes I would recommend. I feel like the struggle >> The struggle is where it's at. This is true for education in general. People like there's all these educators that try to make learning easier and more fun and all that kind of stuff. Great wonderful but part of the thing is the struggle. Absolutely. But yeah let's uh start hearing there's >> [music] >> you're nuts. I heard licks like that all over this. So I knew that that was and then >> [music] >> these licks here He plays a lot of ideas like that. That's basically a C9 chord and the top notes of it. So all these are just inversions of of the same chord. [music] So if I can play that then it's just figuring out the single notes. Okay? So >> [music] [music] >> Okay so if you just take this first part here when he goes So this this intro part You make it sound so simple when you break it down and and and by the way Joe Pass incredible guitar player like this is obvious. >> [music] >> And he improvised all this. >> played it like that. But you know the first >> [music] >> was the individual notes. Ooh that's hard. >> [music] >> Maybe he's playing like that. That sounds more more realistic. >> [music] [music] >> The amount of the different genres that you're able to replicate is just incredible. This is just taking the needle moving it there then going back a little bit oh there and then by the end the record was so scratched. >> [laughter] >> It was um but it was worth it. When I played it for my dad >> Mhm. he couldn't believe I mean he didn't say that's amazing. He was just like hmm pretty good. So what was the role of bebop jazz in the history of music? It seems like it was influential on your life. Uh another guy you had an incredible interview with Flea. People should go listen to that was a great conversation. One of the things that surprised me is just how many musical genres influenced Flea. And the guy showed up in a Miles Davis t-shirt. Bebop. And Miles Davis played with Charlie Parker. Mhm. When he was 18 years old and that's he was Charlie Parker was really his mentor. Can you explain to me why with many of the folks you've interviewed uh and in general out there in the in the world of jazz all roads lead to Miles Davis. Why he's such an influential figure? Because he was the greatest innovator in the history of jazz. He was at the forefront of all these different styles of jazz. I mean he started as a bebop player and then he had records like the birth birth of cool and modal jazz and hardbop and records like Bitches Brew where he started to I guess you would call fusion you start to get these records. You had two main groups of Miles Davis. You had the Miles Davis 50s Quintet and the Miles Davis 60s Quintet. Now, Miles made records with many people, but the 50s Quintet had John Coltrane in it. Had I mean had different piano players. Could be Wynton Kelly. But Paul Chambers in the bass, Philly Joe Jones in the drums. Um and that particular group was uh made just incredibly important records. And then he had his 60s group, which was uh Herbie Hancock on the piano, Ron Carter on the bass, Tony Williams on the drums, and Wayne Shorter on the saxophone. And they made all these incredibly important records. I forget who said it uh in interview with you, but they talked about like uh Miles Davis um his music feeling like I think it I think toes hanging over the cliff or something like this. Meaning like there's always a risk, there's a danger that you're willing to make to fuck it all up live. And that feeling is what creates the the aliveness of the music. Like can you speak to that? Just the the creating in the music the feeling like you're on the edge. Like you're challenging the possibilities of what can happen and it all can go to shit and because of that it feels alive. Well, when I interviewed Ron Carter that played in in Miles' 60s Quintet I asked Ron because Ron did records. He played bass on two 2,200 recording famous records. And I said did you guys ever rehearse with Miles? No. Never. I said so you what what would you do? He goes we just show up in the studio and he'd have the charts, put them on the stand, and and we would we just roll. Mhm. And I said would you listen to it after? No. >> [laughter] >> And I said well what about your what about the the live records that you did at when you'd record at clubs and things like that? He goes we never knew that we were recording. He goes maybe I'd see a a microphone a different kind of microphone in my bass amp. He goes then months later the a record would come out and I'd see and I was on it and I would take it down to the union and say I played on this record so you can get paid for it. But he said we didn't even know we were recording. >> Yeah. >> So, Miles was always about, you know, don't think about it, just just play. >> [sighs and gasps] >> That's crazy. That was on purpose. That was not on purpose. Not to not to do the rehearsals. Not none none of that. >> Yeah, he wanted people to just feel it, play it. Thought is the enemy of flow. As Vinnie Colaiuta told me. Thought is the enemy of flow. How do you make sense that Flea, the bassist for the Red Hot Chili Peppers, is influenced by bebop jazz? So, his stepfather was a jazz bass player. Mhm. And his when his parents got divorced, his he was born in Australia and then they moved to to New York. Then his parents got divorced and his mom married his stepfather who was a jazz jazz musicians. And they then they used to have jam sessions at their place. And Flea loved it. It was kind of like my upbringing with my dad playing jazz all the time. And when it Once it gets inside you, it's just there. And uh and so he is heavily influenced by jazz musicians. >> Yeah, his impression was just hilarious. I mean, he's a character. His whole physical way of being is a character. And his impression of just upright bass is just fun to watch. His whole His intensity when he picked up his bass during the interview, it he's an intense guy and funny and you know, really uh um emotional and um And he picks up his bass and there's a fierceness that you immediately feel. And he starts he talks about how he practices and then when he starts doing slapping stuff, he gets is so into it and and I'm just sitting there going whoa. Wow. >> talked about his practicing routine with you. And one of the things he's like I have to practice the slapping. >> Yeah. No, there's differences in the structure of the different bands, but usually like the the bassist has a vibe to them. I don't know if we can put words to exactly what that is. It's a kind of energy that drives the band. To me, the bass is one of the only instruments that when you play a bad note, everybody notices. I started on the bass Mhm. as a kid. Oh, interesting. Yeah. >> But you also play drums. You also play Yeah, but my first instrument was the cello in third grade. And then I switched to the bass in sixth grade. And my I majored my undergrad degree was in classical bass. So, I I always think of myself as a bass player first. And I always think the bass is the most important instrument because >> Strong words. because >> [laughter] >> as much as I love to play the guitar and I love to play the guitar more than anything I think, but the bass really defines what the quality of the chord is. Cuz you can put the root in there, you can put the third of the chord in the bass, you can put the fifth in there. You can play a lot of notes. And whatever you play in the bass kind of defines what kind of chord it is. So, the bass player has a lot of power. I have to go back to our at the beginning of our conversation. What what do you think are some of the great solos of all time? Can we can we put a few in the consideration? You have a great list on top 20 rock guitar solos of all time. Yeah, so I put Comfortably Numb as my favorite as my top one. >> Yeah, on that day, right? >> On that day. >> Yeah. Right. Now, the day later I would have said it's the second solo. >> [laughter] >> Okay. >> did the first solo because because nobody talks about that solo. And that solo is equally great. And when David Gilmour when I played it for him and we had talked about it in my interview with him, it was just to watch his face when he listened to it was incredible. I mean, I'm thinking to myself it's like I'm sitting with David Gilmour and he's listening to Comfortably Numb and he's hearing it. He's played it a million times live. But how many times has he gone back and listened to it on the record? Mhm. >> It's probably not for a long time. And then he's hearing it and he's like oh. Maybe you just don't look back. When you do great things, you don't look back. >> Miles never looked back. He never wanted to hear the old stuff. He always moved on. There was this funny moment um where you where you made a video why David Gilmour will never be on the channel. And then you ended up of course interviewing him twice. He's one of the greatest guitar players of all time. What do you think is at the core of his genius? He has just an incredible melodic sense. He knows how phrases should be put together. There's a flow to his ideas that I think is just incredible. It's the same with Hendrix. This flow how one idea leads to the next, how there's space between them. It's just like speaking. That's why I read about uh Miles Davis is is very good at understanding tempo and the value of silence. >> Yes. And I think I think David Gilmour doesn't always play fast. Right. >> But he does a lot with less. Yes. And then uh some of that is also on the more technical side probably. The tone of the I mean, he's one of the most uniquely recognizable tones in all of music. >> Yes. What do you understand about what it takes to shape the tone that is David Gilmour? >> He has a very sophisticated setup for his tone. And and that was one of the things when I went to his studio and I said to him, so David, is there anything I'm not supposed to see here? I mean, he never sits down and shows people his gear and he laughed about it. Mhm. [clears throat] But there I am sitting there right next to all these pedals that and I and I asked his tech Phil, I said did these the same ones he used on the records? He's like yeah. And his tech has been with him for like 50 years. And I mean, the exact ones? Yes. So, it's just hard to it's hard to imagine that those things still of course though. They he's just kept it. Yeah, this is his been since echo that he played through and this is this you know, these are all the same effects pedals and the wait, is this the same Hiwatt amp? Yeah. Is this the same yes. Yeah, you get some new stuff, but uh but they keep all their own gear and that's uh I mean, he's did he did sell his guitars for charity. But like he has a black strat that is a it's a signature version. It's the exact copy of his old one. >> Mhm. So, [clears throat] to him it sounds exactly the same, plays the same. Well, of course they converge towards that kind of hardware. But there's so many tiny details over the years. You see the final result of it, but there's a there's a journey there of of exploring. And of course he's not I guess he's not doing any soft like no emulation, no amp >> He does do emulation actually. He does he has this thing and this is I asked him in the first interview about this. There's a little rack thing that I had heard that he used, but I asked him for sure. It's called the Zoom 9030. Mhm. I put out a short where he talks about it. I said so that that Zoom 9030 is that a real thing cuz I've read about it. He's like yeah. And he talks about how when he's sitting there recording on his own and he he runs Pro Tools himself and and so he'll be sitting there. There's no one there to help him. He's like I'll just plug into this thing and then I'll play a solo with this modeler. It's like a kind of 90s modeling early modeling thing. Mhm. And he'll play a solo and then after a while you hear the solo and it's like well, I'm not going to replay that. That sounds great. You get used to the sound of it and that's what it is. So people always talk about oh well, he couldn't have used that. He's recording through an amp and cuz it sounds great. And uh and then he's like yeah, yeah, so that's what I use and then I have I have the video of it right there and it says his presets DG1 and DG2 and you know, whatever. What's your process for preparing for interviews like that? You've done a few legendary people. I never prepare for interviews. Because I ask people things that I'm interested in knowing. So just letting your curiosity just pull it pull you forward. >> I can think of a hundred questions to ask David Gilmour. And but I always ask my questions based on what they say to me. So but I do make a playlist of songs that I want to talk about. So that kind of guides me. Is that cuz I want to make sure that I there's specific things that I need to play to so that you can jog his memory. Cuz anytime you play something that somebody recorded even 50 years ago, they'll remember if they don't remember the exact specifics, they that that brings it to life to them again and they can they can kind of piece together some aspects about it and they can really talk. He can talk about the phrasing and the you know, the kind of melodic direction of things like that. So there's a lot of tiny details that go into a particular song whether it's in the production or how it's played or how how it was composed all that kind of stuff. And you don't know what those are ahead of time. No. You just know the song and you just are looking to jog their memory and maybe your own curiosity of like how did you do this or how did what this sound or that? You make it look easy but you have to have a depth of knowledge. You're saying you don't prepare. I have an incredibly good memory. Exactly. >> That's that's what it is. Is that I can remember when records came out, who produced them, where they recorded them, who was the engineer, what this what songs are on it. And not only that but the with the people I'm interviewing know that I can play all the parts of all the instruments cuz I've done breakdowns of their songs which is why I get the interviews with them in the first place, really. But the actual like the skill of the interview, the thing you're not saying, the preparation is the you young listening to bebop. That's the it's the background knowledge it's the soul carrying with you being able to radiate the love of the soul of music. I will say this, Lex, is that the the other thing is that most of these people have a really good sense of humor. When I was when the first time I interviewed David in New York, my brother John came along and he is a massive David Gilmour fan. That's his biggest influence as a guitar player. And so he said, "You're interviewing David Gilmour? Well, I'm I'm coming." I was like, "All right, come on. Come on down." So so my brother John stood about 5 ft away and John is a sales guy but he great guitar player. So John's like I was like this is John this is David this is my brother John. David, great to meet you, buddy. And you know, John's like it's so he's a sales guy. And and uh so during the interview I I I said I was like "Hey John, what was I going to ask David? Oh, ask him about the Gilmour effect." Oh yeah, that's right. And the Gilmour effect is my thing that I say in the comment section when people say anytime anybody plays anything technical "Oh yeah, that's great but I much prefer David Gilmour." >> [laughter] >> And uh so I always call it the Gilmour effect. Anytime I have like Yngwie Malmsteen, anybody that play that has chops that I interview, the the the negative comments are always "Well, I prefer David Gilmour." And I said that I I told David that he's like, "Well, maybe they should keep their opinions to themselves." >> [laughter] >> Yeah, a lot of these folks have really wonderful personalities with a with a trusted person to be able to reveal that personality. So come from the numb at the top on that day, what else is up there? Stairway to Heaven. Hey Joe. What in that list your top Hendrix solo was Hey Joe. It's the first guitar solo I ever learned so I had to put it on there. So I don't I don't necessarily do these by I do those in kind of how how important they are to me and and my development. So there there's always a biographical component to these lists. Number three was Kid Charlemagne a Steely Dan solo Larry Carlton amazing solo extremely difficult to figure out. Probably there's two solos on the list that are just about are very that one I can play. Uh well, there's a few solos that are very hard to play. Stone in Love by Journey by Neal Neal Schon is very [clears throat] hard to play some licks. Um the um there's a song there's a solo by guitarist Carlos Rios that people don't know. It's Brother to Brother Gino Vannelli song but it's ex- very hard to play and figure out and um that people don't know the solos. I put it on my list cuz I knew a lot of people are going to watch it and they're going to know what this solo is. For me it's a sentimental one. My my first solo is Mr. Crowley Randy Rhoads. I like the musicality Mr. Crowley that there is a melodic component to it. You're playing really fast but there's there's a melody to it. And also there's like a legendary nature to the the the the brief time we had to we had Randy Rhoads. That's just probably one of the greatest guitarists ever. 56 to 82 I think. Terrible. Um he was um um absolute brilliant guitarist had his own style. We should say he's the guitarist for Ozzy Osbourne in the band. Yeah. And uh that Mr. Crowley solo is a is a great solo. Great solo and um he's incredibly influential as a guitar player um too for metal guitar players and um I love Randy Rhoads. Uh another guy. So one of my favorites is Mark Knopfler. Yes. And I did have Mark Knopfler on my list. Sultans of Swing. That's right. You did have it >> No, I had it high on the list and I'll tell you why. I would have had had it lower cuz it's one of the early ones cuz I want people to be like, "Okay, oh, this is a serious list. So Rick's going to talk about serious stuff. So um and Rick's going to play along with all these things. >> [music] [music] >> So I wanted to kind of state that at the beginning of the video. I mean I made the video in one day to do 20 solos. I think I played 19 of them but the Heart solo that I had on there Nancy Wilson I I played the video of and I tried to get a couple of my friends to play the Ice Cream Man Van Halen solo. So I called Dweezil Zappa and I was like, "Dweezil, can you play the Ice Cream Man solo? I'm making a video about it." He's like, "Oh, I'd have to practice that." And I called my friend Phil X who's amazing guitar player and that and he's like, "No, I'd have to practice that." I was like, "Come on, man. Can't somebody play Ice Cream Man?" The opening lick of Ice Cream Man that he plays is very hard to play cuz it's an incredibly long stretch. And it hurt [clears throat] my fingers to do and Eddie would turn his guitar up like this to to play. And plus it's a tricky it's just it's a tricky rhythm and and it's such a big stretch. I was like, "Man, I can't that hurts my hand." I just love that that's the Van Halen solo you have. >> [laughter] >> The top 20. See, I have to do some There's so many Van Halen. My God, it could be there I could pick 25 different Van Halen solos. But to me I mean there really is nobody like Mark Knopfler. I mean there's there's unique guitarist. There's something about his tone. Speaking of Gilmour there's just the tone the care the timing of the notes his improvisation like the live performances of Sultans of Swing that's been actually going somewhat viral around a recent recently his his uh pretty old live performance of um Sultans of Swing. For me Brothers in Arms these kind of soulful mournful type of solos he does really really well. Also the interesting instrumentation of Romeo and Juliet. Just so so many it's truly one of the greats. Now, obviously the intro to Money for Nothing is is one of the greatest almost impossible to recreate that because of the sound is so unique and his it's just improvised. It's so cool. Yeah. There's certain songs like um Europa by Santana. Santana can have that tone too. Yeah. That Mark Knopfler makes me just how clean it is. I think he beats B.B. King in my book on terms of the cleanness of just pure beauty of a single note. Like a power of a single note. I don't know anybody who beats Mark Knopfler. Well, that thing about being able to recognize somebody from a note. You know? When I hear Brian May, I can immediately recognize it's Brian May. Incredibly melodic the tone that he has. Gilmour, Hendrix. Everyone that we're talking about Van Halen it's just they have that one note it's oh, I know who that is. And that's that's why they're talking about him. That'd be funny. That'd be a good video. >> BB King. You hear one note. As a test of like how quickly can you recognize just a solo starts playing? >> That's a great I'm going to make that video tomorrow. >> [laughter] >> Lex, you just The day after tomorrow you'll see it. I would love to see that. >> Can you say can you recognize these players by one note? >> By one note. Yeah, I think it's I think we're being a little too aggressive with that. >> you need like two or three or four or five notes. >> you. So, I I was going to do a video last week where I was going to play uh songs in reverse, okay? See if you can recognize these songs in reverse. And I had my two assistants come in. I was like, "Do you know what song that is?" They're like, "Oh, that's Adele." I like, "What?" And then they're like, "Oh, that's that's Nirvana." Instantly they could recognize. I was like, "Well, that's not worth making a video." I said, "Yeah, it's so obvious. You hear the tone of the voice backwards, forwards, doesn't matter. You know what it is." >> Okay. So, it's about the tone. Yeah. How could you possibly know that from a single note? It's I guess Van Halen you can. One note of a BB King's vibrato you could know. I'm going to I What I'll do is I would separate the guitars. I'll use I I can actually separate the tracks and I'll just play one note. >> you can from a single vibrato you can know it's BB King? >> Yes. Well, we'll see. Put on record. I'm skeptical. >> I'm going to do I'll do 20 of them. Can you recognize these guitarists from a single note? Could you recognize Stevie Ray Vaughan? Absolutely. >> versus >> [sighs and gasps] >> Eric Clapton? Yeah. All right. You might be right. You might be right. Quick 30-second thank you to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfreedman.com/sponsors. We got Uplift Desk for my favorite office desks, BetterHelp for mental health, Element for electrolytes, Finn for customer service AI agents, Shopify for selling stuff online, and Perplexity for curiosity-driven knowledge exploration. Choose wisely, my friends. And now back to my conversation with Rick Beato. What do you think is the best Eric Clapton song? One of the things we haven't mentioned so far is the importance of lyrics and maybe meaning of the song and what it represents. So, in that sense Tears in Heaven >> Well, the story behind that is is heartbreaking. And then I personally really love the sound of Wonderful Tonight. That's a great song. That's one of my favorite Clapton songs. And I as I was like listening to it just doing a whole personal journey introspection knowing that I'm going to talk to Rick Beato. I was listening to just a bunch of songs. And I I learned as embarrassing that I didn't know the the the stories behind the music, but I learned that Eric Clapton was married for 10 for decade to the same woman that George Harrison was married to. And that this woman was the muse, the inspiration for for like so many of the legendary songs of rock including uh Wonderful Tonight, including Layla, >> [clears throat] >> and including George Harrison's Something. Yeah. Legendary song >> also. The same woman. Is she the greatest muse in rock history? >> Probably, yes. This is great. Uh so, in your interviews of musicians and producers I think the thing you're ultimately fascinated by is their whole the process, the the recording, the production, the songwriting, the different elements of the process. So, uh are there examples of different things that stand out to you from the all the interviews you've done? And all By the way, all the recording and production you've done yourself. So, on the recording front, on the production front, on the songwriting process front just things that uh pop into memory. When I've interviewed the the guys that are the producers, like Rick Rubin, Daniel Lanois, Brendan O'Brien, Butch Vig, the thing about producers as opposed to people that are musicians, if you're in a musician, even if you're David Gilmour, you're you do a record and then you tour and then you do another record maybe years go by. But producers are working on multiple records you know, sometimes at a time. Rick Rubin could be working on multiple records and and the variety of things that they do. You can talk to I mean, I can talk to Rick about the Chili Peppers. I can talk to him about Johnny Cash. I can talk to him about Tom Petty. And all these records that I love and there's just so many interesting stories that I mean, these interviews could go on for for days with with Rick. And the variety of records that he worked on and um and there's so much knowledge to be gained for me at least. And I think that that the craft of production and recording engineering is something that is not well documented. Um especially since there's no there's so few studios nowadays where there used to be a mentorship thing where you'd go and you work as an assistant engineer and you would work your way up. I interviewed a guy named Ken Scott that uh worked with the Beatles. I interviewed him at Abbey Road Studios is just 2 months ago. And he started as a tape op when he was 16. He started on the uh Hard Day's Night record with the Beatles. And he worked his way up and he said the first time he ever recorded an orchestra was he recorded I'm the Walrus, the orchestra part. He set up the mics and I asked him I said, "So, where was the band?" Standing right behind me, the Beatles, right behind him. The guy I'm interviewing at Abbey Road recorded I'm the Walrus there. I mean, recorded many Beatles songs. And and he was 18 years old and the I mean, I just can't I can't even fathom that. We They have a little cafe in the basement of Abbey Road and I said, "Did the Beatles come in here?" He goes, "Oh, yeah, they come in here and get coffee and I remember when they got two microwaves that uh like the first microwave in 1965 and they were amazed by them and uh it's hard to imagine that I'm talking to people that worked on these historic records. But, you know, they all start with a blank tape or an empty hard drive. And then you eventually fill them up with this music that you can't you can never imagine it not existing like Stairway to Heaven or whatever it is. Yeah. It's funny like looking back even probably for them just to realize they've created that magic is hard to believe. Yeah. Cuz you're looking at a blank thing and then magic comes out and you don't even you don't even understand. I You don't even understand. Probably a lot of these artists don't understand where that came from. They're channeling some deeper thing. When I interviewed Brian May, he told me I can't remember if this was if we talked about it on camera or not, but we talked about Bohemian Rhapsody. At the very end there was a thing where he was depressing his whammy bar a little bit and it sounds like the piano is out of tune. I never noticed it before he mentioned this to me. And he said it always bothered him. And the there's always something about these songs that bothers people. >> Mhm. Even these songs >> things, yeah. Right. There's always little things and they they sit in there and they hear it and they're like, "Oh, man, I wish I'd been up a little higher on that" or whatever. I mean, that that there's certain moments in songs that are just unlike anything else. On Bohemian Rhapsody when Freddie Mercury is sometimes wish I've never been born at all. Mhm. And then guitar comes in. I mean, there's just nothing like that. Yeah. That was that I don't even know. I mean, that that whole thing and you've done videos on it. It's incredibly complicated composition. It's it's crazy that a popular song, popular rock song could be this operatic, so complicated. The other thing akin to that moment is uh Phil Collins with uh In the Air Tonight, the drum bridge. do do do do do do do do do >> Yeah. Yeah, what is that? I killed it. I don't I don't understand how you can create that. What is that? Why is that so magical? Why is that so singular inside a particular song and in rock history, period? Like these moments. I don't know. Musically, I don't understand how you create them. Cuz it might be bigger than musical. Might be cultural all a bunch of different elements. And plus it's him, Phil, with like I've seen live before where he has like a headset. He does There's something He's like a telemarketer something. Like this whole vibe and look to him. He's doesn't look like a rock star. But he is. Those are hooks. When you think about it, right? It's like it's as much of a hook as any as the chorus of the song or any song. That drum thing is something that people wait for and they air drum to it. Everybody air drums to it. And it is a hook. And those are hard to create. Those are those moments are really hard to create and usually they're done by accident. Yes, it's hard if you chase it, you're not going to get it. Yeah. In your conversation with Sting >> [snorts] >> he said something about um how modern music is simpler. Uh more minimalistic and the bridge is gone, I think he said. And he said he thought that the bridge is therapy. Yes. It's like a chance for you to reflect, I guess, on the verse. Right. >> Before the chorus comes in. It changed my view of the bridge, I suppose, the therapeutic nature of it, at least lyrically. Um you think he's on to something, the value of the bridge? The bridge is a place, I think, where you can kind of change the frame of reference of a song. You could probably do anything, I guess. Lennon used to he would have some kind of biting lyrics, like um We can work it out. So, McCartney writes the, you know, try to see it my way, do I have to keep on going till I can't go on. And then but the bridge is very Lennon. Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting, my friend. I have always thought that it's a crime. So, I'll ask you once again. I mean, it's very, you know, very Lennon-esque. This is That was really a kind of a uh real collaboration between the two of those. This is where different parts of the band can clash in interesting ways. I mean, the Beatles are the epitome of that. Such like each individual Beatle is uh a great talent in their own right. Yes. How were the Beatles able to create some of the greatest songs of all time all before they turned 30 years old? I have never been able to figure that out. But, I have a theory that >> [laughter] >> because I have a theory. Because PA systems were so bad back then and the Beatles people screamed so loudly that the Beatles thought, "Okay, we don't we don't need we can't tour anymore cuz we can't even hear ourselves. So, we're just going to be a studio band." And maybe because of we have all these great late Beatles records are from 1966 on just because they had bad PA systems. Mhm. And they had no monitors, you know, they're in Shea Stadium, people are screaming so loudly they can't hear themselves. They're like, "Okay, forget this. We can't tour. We'll just make studio records." So, that's what they did. And in that one year like from August 6th, 1965, they put out Help! Then in December 3rd they put out Rubber Soul of '65. Then then August 5th, they put out Revolver. So, within 365 days, they put out three 14 I think 14-song records. So, they wrote and recorded three incredibly important records. So, they were in the studio. It's like working out. They're practicing their craft every day, writing songs, trying to outdo the other ones. And so, you had the the perfect thing of of four supremely talented musicians, songwriters, singers. And then the best producer you could possibly have, George Martin. And and it was just a perfect storm. I think that when I would talk to friends that would just play in local clubs and they'd play 4-hour sets five nights a week and they never lost their voices because they're always working those muscles. >> Mhm. And same with the Beatles, they were always in the studio singing every single day, doing takes. And and I think that that was part of it, at least. But, you also have this theory that uh you know, that the greatest productivity that musicians have is before they turn 30. The the greatest sort of creative genius that can come out of the human mind musically is before the age of 30. >> I think it's the same in mathematics as well. That you have this fluid intelligence versus crystallized intelligence. Fluid intelligence up until you're about, you know, in your late 20s, 30 years old. And then crystallized, so you're using the crystallized is you're using your life experience to to write things. So, you'll find that that composers, Bach, Beethoven, Mozart wrote their most important works at the end of their lives. Beethoven, the late string quartets, the ninth symphony, things like that. So, they have a whole lifetime of experience that lead up to this and there's not they're not improvising. But, things for improvising, writing pop songs, and that I think when your mind is really most active and your brain processing speed is at its pinnacle that this is my theory that people can uh come up with those kind of ideas. Same with improvising. I think that most jazz improvisers, not all but most do their best improvising before age 30. Creating something new. >> Yes. Truly novel. That that requires a youth. >> [sighs and gasps] >> It's just a theory, though, but it seems to apply. What do you think about the the 27 Club? A bunch of the music greats died at 27. Hendrix, Brian Jones, Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, Amy Winehouse, Kurt Cobain. Kurt Cobain, of course. A big part of music history is linked to drug history. Mhm. You mean LSD, coke, heroin, weed, smoking. Smoking. I think about this a lot. If you go back and you watch videos, the Beatles any of their movies, they're smoking all the time. The Get Back documentary, they're smoking constantly. Go watch any of the MTV Unplugged, Nirvana, Kurt Cobain is smoking every second that he's not playing. He's smoking. Every singer smoked. Every musician smoked. Nowadays I asked my son Dylan, "Dylan, does anybody smoke at his high school?" He's like, "Smoke? Nobody smokes." He He thought that it was an absurd question. And that was part of culture. It was for everybody. I mean, that was that was a big transformation over the past 20 years that just everybody stopped smoking. But, I don't think smoking has the kind of hard negative effect that we're talking about. I mean, I almost would rather have them smoke than some of the other hard drugs. Maybe smoking distracts them from the hard I mean, heroin and coke, I mean, those those things really and alcohol, unfortunately, Mhm. can be easily abused, I think. It seems like it's a the the life of a musician this dopamine thing of getting on stage and be being adored by tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people, the high of that, and then the come down after is really hard life for just even neurobiologically of like, how do you deal with that? You have to be able to control the roller coaster of your mind. And of course, drugs will be a part of that. And you think everything is allowed and everything is possible. And then there's also culture, depending on who you hang out with, that certain kinds of categories of drugs are good for your creativity. Mhm. And so naturally start to abuse those drugs. I don't know. I think I think I think it's really interesting the role that drugs have played in the in the history of music. They have certainly been extremely destructive. But, they have also certainly been productive uh muses, inspirations for some of these folks. Oh, absolutely. Now, would we want to, you know, advocate people doing things like that to boost their creativity? No. >> wouldn't, but just like smoking, which I think improved people's voices. >> [laughter] >> I mean, it really the raspiness of it. This is the reason that the that that so many of these virtually every famous singer no matter what genre music, jazz, soul, rock, they all smoked. Nat King Cole Yeah. Miles Davis, too? Miles smoked Everybody smoked. Miles didn't Well, Miles was a heroin addict, too. I mean, so many jazz musicians. But, Miles had a sound to him. You You're right. I mean, smoking must must play a gigantic role to that, adding some complexity to the voice. Yes. Yeah, some richness to the voice. >> Nat King Cole, he's he smoked, I think, four packs a day. He died of lung cancer. Um lot of heavy smokers, those singers. Frank Sinatra, heavy smoker. McCartney was a heavy smoker. Lennon, all those guys smoked. Yeah, it's hard to know chicken or the egg. But, I certainly wouldn't recommend doing drugs as a way to get better at music. >> [laughter] >> But, you know, it does seem to go hand in hand. And some of it has to do with the period, with the time period, with the with the place. Cuz sometimes it's part of the culture, the drug use like you're saying, smoking. If you're smoking now, that's going to be a very different experience than smoking 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 50 years ago. It's a different different vibe. So, sometimes the drug is a deep integrated part of the culture versus an actual chemical substance. The '60s, right? They're I don't know, they were on everything in the '60s. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> I mean, it has to account for something, Lex. You know, uh on the songwriting front, you mentioned a story about Elton John recording. So, he's one of the legendary songwriters. But, yeah, you've met him and you know something about the process of his um Yeah, cuz he was recording in a studio in Atlanta that I was working with a band that I was producing. and he was in I was in studio B, he was in studio A and this band that I was working with they were called Jump Little Children and so he had his assistant come in and ask hey is this are you guys Jump Little Children? Yeah, yeah. And then all of a sudden I couldn't see out into the live room. Elton walked into the thing and we were getting ready to track and I'm I'm pressing the button. Yo, where are where are you guys? What's up? I thought we're going to start this. And no one's responding. I can hear talking. I was like what what's going on? Where are they? Then all of a sudden they come back in the studio and they were stunned. I said where were you guys? Elton John just walked into our session and he said he's a big fan. He said to come over when we're done and and hang out in studio A. So so we did and he was there with Bernie Taupin they were working on a song and he we talked with him for for an hour and he was talking about recording two records a year and then they'd go out on tour and they'd write and record the whole record in two weeks. So Bernie would give him lyrics. Elton would go out and spend 15 minutes writing all the melody. He'd look at his lyrics and he was doing that that day. Bernie was there and they had a lyric sheet up in the piano. And Elton would go on and they just okay just record this and Elton would sit there and and play and come up with the song in 15 minutes or so. Yeah, it's There's a great version of I think Tiny Dancer where Elton is coming up with it on it's on YouTube. And he's just coming up with the music right there and then the band okay here's how it goes and they record it right then. They move on to the next session. It's really incredible. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Dude, there's one video that I sort of done the other day with Tiny Dancer which is about Bernie's girlfriend. So I just sort of run it through and then put two verses together then a middle eight then a chorus and then back to the sort of verse sort of thing. It's it's a very it happens very quickly. It sounds long but it's sort of it's sort of starts off blue jean baby LA lady seems dressed for the band. iron smile [singing] pretty eyes you're married Okay. It's really amazing that he just He's looking at it just the lyrics. >> Yeah, and it's one of the he's one of the very few people that has the lyrics first and writes the music to it which to me is far more difficult. 99% of songwriters write the music first and then they put the melody and lyrics to the finished backing track. And maybe they write like lyrics they write like uh nonsense words kind of thing. And they figure out from there. Yeah, that's I mean I don't know what skill that is exactly. But that's incredible. I mean in that process he makes it his own. Yes. Okay, uh you had an amazing interview with uh Kirk Hammett. I'm a huge Metallica fan. Same here. >> [laughter] >> Uh there's a lot of interesting stuff that came out of that from that conversation. Uh one is the distinction between heavy metal and hard rock which is very interesting. Of course Metallica went through their own evolution. They had many periods. I mean they've been around 40 years. Over 40 years, yeah. Crazy. The other thing is the down picking which is interesting which is creating that really distinct sound. James and Kirk's the the down the down picking I used to be able to do that. I just can't do that anymore. It hurts my thumb to to do it. I think honestly I I thought a lot about it. It's like why does it why is it so painful? Why is it so hard? It's from swiping with your thumb on phones. And I think it affects that basal joint there and I'm so it no I'm serious. I think that that's actually right cuz I'm thinking like why does that hurt so much to do that? All the down strokes and stuff. It's got to be something. It's like yeah it's from from swiping with a phone. The other thing that came through was um that he's a improviser at heart. And that I think clashes with this kind of rigid structure that metal is. So there's a real soulful melodic aspect to him. And he gave a lot of props to James Hetfield for just being a great composer being a great musician and writer of riffs of rhythm. The improvisation part of it you don't think of cuz they they cuz you have the finished songs that you listen to. But those songs are born out of improvisations of jams of little fragments of ideas and then they craft them into these masterpieces. Also he mentioned that this is weird that I didn't know that Hendrix was used different gauges strings. Yeah, he was the one that talked about that, wasn't he? Yeah, that was really interesting. See these are the things that I like to learn from uh from these interviews with these people. I'm like what? Why have I never heard of that? It's like it's one of the ways you can find uniqueness of sound is by trying different things that are not I mean I guess Zappa was really good at this, right? It's completely breaking out of what you're supposed to do the ways you're supposed to do them and doing it completely differently. Uh you often ask musicians what their perfect song is. First of all it's a interesting question. What is a perfect song? Like what surprised me is Hans Zimmer said God only knows by the Beach Boys. >> [laughter] >> I was surprised by that too. But I thought it was like yeah okay that's a perfect song for sure. The first interview I ever did was with Peter Frampton in 2018. And I asked him in that interview what's a perfect song and he said Whiter Shade of Pale and I was like ooh that's a great song. And then I thought I'm going to ask that to people just to see what they now people are prepared if I ask that. But it's like They're willing to go out on a limb and say it. >> Yeah. Like if you ask me I don't even know. I guess you just say it whatever, right? Like what would I even say? What's a perfect song? Yeah, I would go see I feel the pressure. Right? Because the problem is the reality is it changes day by day. Like minute by minute. I Yeah, I would probably I'm sorry but I would have to go Mark Knopfler and I would probably go Is it is it really cheesy to say the obvious thing? I would go Sultans of Swing. Even though like I'm tempted to say Europa but then like Sultans of Swing hits on so many levels cuz it's got a great melody, great lyrics and then multiple great guitar solos. And it has such a unique sound to it. The other thing is that it sounds very different from other Dire Straits songs. I mean it's like early Dire Straits strat tone and then you think of like Money for Nothing is a Les Paul and it's a totally different kind of vibe than him playing on on Sultans of Swing. But that song is amazing. Plus it it's about music. Yes. So it's like there's a there's a meta aspect to it. But then there's also like we're talking about this guitar stuff but Leonard Cohen Hallelujah. I mean Leonard Cohen in general like these songwriters that go super simple on guitar. Mhm. And they're it's just uh what's that called? Singer-songwriter type. Uh I told you all my uh one of my maybe the music guest that's a dream guest is Tom Waits. >> [sighs] >> I've wanted to talk to Tom Waits for a very long time and I've gone through different periods of you've met me at a point in my life where I've given up on it on it a little bit. I was told it's going to happen once. Okay. Once you give up on it it's going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. Um But Tom Waits won't be on your podcast. Exactly. [laughter] Exactly, dude. This is this is my this is my moment. >> Tom come come here. Let's do it. I want to see it. I'm such a a fan of like the Zappa like artistry on the on the musical front which Tom Waits has but I'm a I'm a sucker for great lyrics. Lyrics to me is such a big part of great songs. And and he's another example. He has a song called Martha. It's about a love story that didn't work out and it's an older man calling the woman that he was in love with and basically reminiscing about like time you know thinking about like what what would have happened if it worked out that kind of thing. And then you know I love that song for a long time and you know uh at some point I found out that he wrote that when he was in his early 20s. And you realize similar with the Beatles like the these guys somehow are able to capture the human condition so masterfully. And they're kids. >> Yes. This I don't get it. I don't understand it. I can't speak for Tom Waits but in the Beatles case they went to Hamburg. They spent time on their own. They played cover gigs that were 8 hours long and they lived Yeah, they've lived. They lived life. Yeah. It's not like not like kids today. >> [laughter] >> Now you're on a porch. Uh you also had uh an amazing interview with Billy Corgan. That's Smashing Pumpkins. [snorts] Uh he is definitely one of my favorite musicians. >> Billy. You asked him an interesting question about how he creates this melancholy feeling that permeates a lot of his songs. And he jokingly said that uh the secret is all about the seventh and then and the ninth. Um So like musically chord wise what do you think about that? You think he's onto something? He's talking a little music theory there. >> Yeah, yeah. Seventh and ninth over the chord that he's playing. So, if you're playing a C chord, he's singing a B would be the seventh, D would be the ninth. And he does use a lot of those notes. But, almost all these people that we're talking, no, all these people that we're talking about use these notes, and this is why their songs I and when I interviewed Sting, I called them surprise tones, and Sting's like, I like the way you use the word surprise. Notes that are outside the chord that are dissonant with the chords that they're playing, and that creates emotion. Dissonance equals emotion. And that's that's what I like. I want music to be to depress me. Yeah, what is that? I don't know. They But melancholy and I think you are articulating that in a reason. It's not actually that depressing. There's something about that melancholy feeling that is somehow the other side of the coin of happiness. It's a kind of longing. Yes. There's a hopefulness to it, that aloneness that you feel. I mean, that's actually like one of the intimate connections you have with music is when you're alone. There's I think there's a social way of listening to music, when maybe at a concert and so on. But, there's this There's nothing like you're alone in the car driving listening to like whatever it is, Bruce Springsteen. Uh I think Louis C.K. has a bit about that. And was it Bruce Springsteen? But, he sometimes has to pull over to the side of the road just weep or something like this. This is just There's some There's something about that. Sometimes a song just connects with you, and I don't know it Nothing like a melancholy song can do that. It You think about like this maybe things you regret, or how life could have worked out. And sometimes it's not even about like it's not even real. It's just connects something to this in the soul. The the uneasiness that we all feel, maybe the loneliness we all feel that underpins so much of the human condition. It just connects to that. I don't know what that is. >> Kurt Cobain lyric that was on the In Utero record from the song Frances Farmer. The chorus part is, I miss the comfort of being sad. And I was like, yes. I miss the comfort of being sad. I was like, yeah, that's it right there. In terms of love songs, somehow I find powerful that kind of desperation. So, like I I've always connected with Pearl Jam's Black. Oh. Amazing. Uh that line as a friend of mine was going through a breakup, so I was listening and he he's the one that introduced me to Pearl Jam during that that whole period uh when Pearl Jam was huge uh with 10. Is Is that line is someday Someday you'll have a beautiful life. You know, someday you'll be a star in somebody else's sky. Why why why can't it be can't it be mine? Oh my god, that Yeah. blows me away. That's an amazing line. Why, yeah. Eddie The delivery is incredible on it, too. Eddie Vedder, one of the great frontmen of all time. >> Yes. >> And that whole period that whole moment in history uh of Kurt Cobain and Eddie Vedder that captured That was the '90s. That was one side of the '90s that just this singular moment in history. Um Who Who do you think are the great frontmen in the history of music? Freddie Mercury, Robert Plant, Freddie Mercury number one, probably. Steven Tyler, Jim Morrison, Jim Morrison Yeah. Roger Daltrey, um Well, we have to say I have to say we have to say James Hetfield. James Hetfield? I mean, There's nothing I have I mean, I have to talk to you about this. I have I mean, this is the greatest I think the greatest concert of all time. This is uh their historic performance in Moscow in um September of '91. This is shortly before the Soviet Union collapsed. Plus, we should mention AC/DC and Pantera Mhm. [clears throat] were there, too. And about 1.6 million people were there. Now, by the way, there's like some kind of recording that it was a half a million people, 500,000 people. That's somewhere I've seen statements like that. That's a ridiculously inaccurate statement. So, it's a free concert. So, any official counts don't count. It's uh it's it's definitely over a million. It's It's very likely to be 1.5, 1.6 million people. And this moment in history that I think they channeled It's like whenever great music the Metallica was firing on all cylinders, at the very top of their game, and they meet this moment in history in this place in history that was a a defining part of the 20th century collapsing, and you have these people who are um for a moment through music are able to escape the fear, the anger they feel, the all of it. So, it's also political, social, cultural moment meeting the musical moment. And the the setlist I was just I was I listened to this several times over the past few days just taking myself back into that moment in time. Listen to this setlist. Enter Sandman, Creeping Death, Harvester of Sorrow, Fade to Black, Sad but True, Master of Puppets, Seek and Destroy, For Whom the Bell Look at that. How is that that just That's my kind of set. >> is amazing. This is >> kind of set right there. I don't know if you could think of anything that could beat that. I think that the guys in the band would say that, too. That was I mean, they were really at their at their peak. The Black Album had just come out then, and that must have been so so exciting. I mean, Woodstock was big. There's There's certain moments in time when they really really meet the moment. Are you a fan of live live like big I used to be, but at this point Yeah. I can't uh you know. I'd much rather see people play in small clubs and or go to the I'd like to listen to the studio. Go to the studio, even. I generally almost entirely agree with you. I just think that there's these historic moments, but you don't know which you're going to be which. But, you're making the concert free. It's just all of it to get plus Pantera and AC/DC. >> [sighs] >> The other which actually is a legitimate thing you mentioned is uh as one of the greatest concerts of all time is [clears throat] Beethoven's world premiere of Ninth Symphony. You know, I didn't really know the personal side of Beethoven until I saw this movie called Immortal Beloved. It's an excellent movie with Gary Oldman. Just a really is a masterful uh celebration of Beethoven in an interesting kind of way through the perspective of a love letter that he's written. But, then I realized like this is already as many many couple decades ago now, that you know, he went deaf before he even started writing the Ninth Symphony, which is why they consider it to be one of the greatest compositions of all time, the greatest symphonies of all time. He went deaf, couldn't hear anything before he even started writing it. And so, there's that famous story of him in that world premiere of having to be turned around because he can't hear people applauding. So, he has to be turned around to see that people are actually clapping. I mean, there's just this whole tragic element plus the the meaning of the symphony that ends in this beautiful uh Ode to Joy. The symphony itself is a kind of it starts with a chaos and conflict and ends with this celebration of peace and brotherly unity. And a I guess a call for that, a reaching for that, for that peace. And it's a there's a tragic element to it again connected to history, which is it was post-Napoleonic Wars Mhm. and before the American Civil War. So, like you're in this in this middle this respite from from war calling for peace, not knowing that uh truly horrific wars are coming soon. You have the the American Civil War, and you have the of course the two World Wars coming. So, this all of it together, and the fact that he's conducting deaf, and he wrote this whole thing deaf. I was reading a lot about his process, and he just edits and edits and edits and edits. So, the fact that he had to edit in his head is just insane. I mean, Beethoven was sick all the time, too. I mean, there a lot of people were sick all the time. It was very common. What would motivate you to write music, this beautiful music that you can never actually hear except for in your head, right? Like why [clears throat] the amount of time it takes to write >> [laughter] >> to write a 35-minute, 40-minute piece, all the parts, you got to hear all the orchestration in your head, you're editing, you're doing all these things. Where do you get the motivation when you can't hear the actual finished work? Well, then then people would say, well, he's hear hear it in his head. But, what kind of enjoyment is it? You want to hear the orches- I mean, it's really a profound that he that that he was inspired to do this. There's a thing called the Heiligenstadt Testament that he wrote. It was a letter to his brothers in from 1802. I think they found it in his desk after Beethoven died. And he felt a sense of shame and humiliation because of his hearing loss and he said that he was afflicted with this thing where him of all people that someone standing next to him could hear a flute that he could not hear or a shepherd singing in the field that and he could not hear this and and of all the people why him where hearing played such an important part. Another person that had would have had to have had perfect pitch cuz you could never do this. Mhm. If [clears throat] you didn't have perfect pitch, which I think all these great composers for the most part Brahms didn't from what I know, but all the rest of them for sure had perfect pitch. So they could hear these things in their head and that's how they composed. I mean you love sound and music. What do you think it was like gradually losing your hearing for Beethoven? It must have been terrible. I mean I just terrible. I mean I have heard things where he had a would have a stick in his mouth and and put it on the soundboard of the piano and you could feel the vibrations in his skull and things like that. >> trying to Yeah. I just But also there's what is what is that that he's able to write like one of the greatest symphonies ever while deaf. So there there's something about that we mentioned darkness but torment that he's going through. And ultimately Ode to Joy like not a cynical thing, but a call for the positive. >> [snorts] >> Yeah. Yeah. That's that's I I I have devoted many many hours thinking about that. And plus Napoleon broke his heart because he was a supporter of Napoleon because Napoleon was supposed to represent represent the French Revolution, this this hopeful future of no more kings, no more monarchs, no more authoritarian regimes and Napoleon ended up becoming essentially king. Right. Uh becoming authoritarian and Beethoven um sort of famously was critical of that. Nevertheless, I think maintained a fascination with Napoleon throughout his life. But sort of a kind of more sophisticated complex view of human nature and human civilization. So becoming more cynical. Like seeing more clearly that the world disappoints you, that dreams get shattered and through that is able to still do this call for the hopeful future. All right. So Okay, so Beethoven one of the greats for sure. Like basically everybody I know how to play the first movement of Moonlight Sonata, but I always avoided the third movement cuz I was like I'm never be good enough. >> [laughter] >> Never. Never. >> [clears throat] >> Never say never like Like one of these days maybe. You know what would be great if Tom Waits writes me an email that says, "I only talk to people that can play the third movement." >> Play the third movement. That would be that would be a dream come true. There you go. It'd be like for this That's motivation. >> dragon or whatever you do you have to have a prince and rescue the princess. My dragon is the third movement of Moonlight Sonata. Okay. Uh you often highlight the importance of Bach. In fact, so many of your guests Every famous songwriter is influenced by Bach. It they are. The greatest composer of all time, the greatest musician of all time. Even Sting and Dominic Miller said they go to Bach even for like practice. Every day. People talk about Bach was not known other than in his places he lived. Eisenach, he was born in Leipzig, he spent many years. Uh but Bach was known to great musicians. It was difficult to find manuscripts, but there was a premiere of the St. Matthew Passion that Mendelssohn had done in 17 in 1829. It was on March 11th, I believe. He had a manuscript because uh his father and mother collected manuscripts Mhm. and he got a manuscript of this piece and he I think he was 20 years old and and they had a performance of it in Berlin and Beethoven, Mozart, they studied the Well-Tempered Clavier, the two books of the Well-Tempered Clavier. But um Bach wrote profoundly beautiful music and some of the most complex contrapuntal music that I don't think anyone has ever done like that. Extremely bright guy. Had 20 kids, 10 of them only 10 survived till adulthood. Lost both his parents when he was nine within nine months of each other. Went to live with an older brother. Extremely productive. Yes. I saw. I yeah. I think from all the music teachers I've ever had, I understood the importance of studying Bach. He didn't write Master of Puppets, but he wrote some great powerful music. >> Well put. I I I tried to um educate music teachers of the brilliance of the Master of the Puppets. Uh sometimes a good riff is greater than any any musical composition. >> I I agree. I go back and I play Master of Puppets every time I'm trying out a new amplifier. That's my go-to. >> go-to. >> [laughter] >> So like so the the the stereotypical like guitar store when you come in you're playing Master of Puppets. >> I'll play Master of Puppets. I I will play I have to play some heavy riff. Mhm. And so usually it will default to some Metallica or something like that. Or I'll play Alice in Chains or I do usually like a lot of times I'll go and I'll do drop D something or play Tool. Mhm. I usually would do something do do some drop tuning thing. It's It's got always got to be some some type of metal that I'll test to see if the if the bottom end's tight on the amp and stuff. So yes. All right, we have to talk about this a little bit. You made a bunch of videos about it. There was a there's a moment in time. It still goes on, but there was a moment where it was really people are freaking out about the use of AI in music. Mhm. Uh so there's these I would say incredible apps like Suno, UDO. 11 Labs music is also great. They can generate basically text-to-song full song from a text prompt. And a lot of people start freaking out just but based on how good it is. Mhm. And so you start to immediately imagine how this is going to transform music and you're going to replace musicians and all that kind of stuff. Uh it is legitimately nerve-racking because these are early versions so you don't know where it goes. But in your intuition now, you've been thinking about this, you made a bunch of videos. Now like being able to reflect, okay, everybody chill. Calm down. So If you write a prompt in Suno and it spits out a song, which I've did I've done made bunch of videos in this. I made up a fake artist Eli Mercer in this video. Then I did a thing for CBS News. I made up this fake artist Sadie Winters and came up with this song Walking Away. Well, the computer the program came up with it. >> There is some creativity in a process. So in this particular thing the process is you generate an image. I did it in ChatGPT the image. Then I went to then I went to Claude and I wrote the lyrics cuz Claude's way better at lyrics than Suno is. Suno's bad at lyrics at least right now. So I So I did I created the lyrics in Claude and then I imported the lyrics into Suno and I had great results with the songs that I came up that it came up with. I always have to qualify that. But I started thinking about this. People freak out about this. Oh, this is bad. This is bad. And then I thought I was like, no. Who are people going to be the ones that are going to benefit from AI? Well, the people that are already great songwriters because you have to be able to recognize when it spits out something good versus when it spits out something that's not that good. Mhm. And every other song I I've probably created 130 song ideas out of which there's three good ones. And there's a thing that's happening where people's ear very quickly is is becoming attuned to AI slop. Yes. And that's actually quite fascinating. Like for example, one of the things there's this viral clip going around of an AI bass like a soul jazz remix of songs like 50 Cent Many Men. And I think it is super impressive and it's a different pipeline actually. It's a tricky pipeline how to pull that off and I think a lot of the creativity in that even that kind of remixing is in the pipeline that of how you actually do that because there's actually a lot of manual stuff in that pipeline. Uh but I think ironically it's very cool at first. But when you listen to it for a while you understand that this is AI slop. Yes. For a soul remix it it actually lacks soul. But it made me think of like when I listen to soul or blues, I think I really want in that case to know I don't want a AI BB King. I want the real BB King. And I if I if I know if any AI is involved in a BB King process, I'm tuning out. >> Yes. And I don't think I'm being curmudgeonly old dude in that. I think we humans want authenticity. So when when AI when I first started making these AI videos, this started back in 2023. I made my first one. And I would take my phone, come up in the kitchen, I'd play a song, and then my my youngest and Dylan, my youngest Layla, and I have three kids. And my oldest Dylan, as soon as I played "Why are you listening to AI?" And I was like, "Oh my god, instantly." I was like, "How do you know?" "Oh, it has this ringing sound in the thing." So, it took me probably about four or five days to figure, "Okay, what are they hearing that I'm not hearing?" So, I did it I separated all the parts, and what they're hearing was the artifacts that are in the vocal reverb that sound that were uh that made incomplete. It just couldn't do the ambiences correctly, right? Cuz it's trained on a lot of these AI programs are trained on very low bit bit rate uh MP3s, right? So, they feed all this stuff in there. So, they're getting really inferior information on the tr- in the training process. Whereas now, when they make these deals with the major labels, they'll get the multi-tracks, and they'll get high-quality wave files to train from, right? And whoever opts in, they get the solo vocal tracks, you know, if Ed Sheeran wants to do it or Drake or whoever wants to give their voice to it, let it do its thing, and then get their royalties from it. I'm not saying that any any of them are doing. I'm just giving an example. But, every time that I would do it, I could be down the hall, and I would play something on my phone just to see if they'll like, "Why are you listening to AI?" Oh, they can instantly tell. Then eventually, it started getting better. And then and then it'd be like, "Is this AI?" I'd be in the car with Layla coming back from Taekwondo practice, and she's like, "Is this AI? Why does it sound like AI? Sounds like it could be AI." And I'd be like, "Yeah, it's AI." She's like, "Oh, it's getting better." Mhm. And then I did this song for um it was an NPR interview. I created a song with a fake artist, and the song was called Neon Ghosts, and I played it for Layla in the car. She's like, "Can you separate the tracks?" I said, "Yeah, I have them separated back home." "Okay, I want to go down here." So, we go down to studio, and and I play it for her, and she listens to the soloed vocal. She said, "Wow, this is really realistic." Mhm. >> "This is very hard to tell even with the soloed vocal. I I think the room for creativity right now for humans is lyrics. It seems like the lyrics that are being generated, they lack soul somehow, and that's I don't know the words correctly. Yeah. I mean, they can be incredibly sophisticated, but there's so something the edge is not there. Some kind of edge that you we want in our lyrics, some kind of surprise, but not cringe or not cliché. It some something truly novel in the lyrics. The but that if that's the case, it's kind of sad that um that that's where the creativity has to come from, but not from the music. Because then if we can create very realistic music that sounds really damn good, where's the role of the musician there? I think the role of the musician is that in actually if they use AI to assist them in coming up with ideas, they as a creation tool, then the musician the some of the stuff is just not high-quality sonically high-quality. So, the musician goes in and redoes stuff and changes things and adds parts, and then they actually do music production. And maybe they re-sing the parts, and they change the stuff, and then then it's just basically like an idea generator. And I think that that's a great use of AI is for that. But but see, if you do that, does it make you sad that you don't necessarily need to learn instruments? So, basically, you can I mean, you can think of it as a different kind of instrument, but you can write lyrics, you can hum the melody, you can just hum parts. >> Yeah. You know? And then and then do AB kind of thing, this kind of rhythm, this kind of and stitch them together, and never actually have your fingers on a guitar or or fingers on a drumstick. >> not going to use AI, Lex, is for that reason, because to me, it's just boring. And I when I use it, it's it's like >> Ugh. But I I used it for about a month or so just cuz I was making videos, and I was trying to see how it's advancing. Every every three or four months, I'll I'll I'll sit down, and I'll see whatever new versions they have, and I'll write some songs. Write some songs. I'll prompt some songs, and see what they come up with, and see if they're improving on the things. But ultimately, I don't find it interesting to to use. I hear you. You're a bit old school. I must I am I. Yeah. I'm trying to think about the future, and I think it's still even in the future also going to be boring. I think there's something fundamentally boring about it, and I've been trying to figure it out. So, for example, I use it a lot for more and more and more for programming. So, [snorts] for building stuff. And there, it's not about the final output is not the code, the output is what the code creates. And there, it's extremely useful. Not It doesn't matter if it's boring or not. It's useful. But when the final output is the thing that AI creates, which would be in in music, then there's something about us that just like we know we there is something boring about it. >> Yes. We want to celebrate and see the thing that's hard to create. And if AI can just text the song, generate a top 10 hit, we we will quickly lose value for that, I think. And so, we'll want raw like raw. Whatever whatever shape that raw takes. I want to say raw talent, but that raw talent of any kind. And per- perhaps it would make me a little bit sad, but that's also awesome. Perhaps the new kind of raw talent that civilization is asking for is how to make uh great TikToks. Maybe that's what raw talent looks like. It makes me a little bit sad, because I'm a huge fan of long form. Mhm. Uh but that that also creating TikToks and is is also talent. It's a It is a talent, absolutely. Um when I see anything that's AI-generated, I instantly recognize it. Any video, I'm like, "Ugh, boring, boring, boring." And my kids do the same thing. They just have no interest in engaging with it. As soon as they recognize it, and they can spot it a mile away, >> Yeah. and they're just like, "Boring, boring, boring, boring, boring." And then they kind of dis- then they they don't even want to engage with the social media platforms, which is which is a danger, uh which I think they need to crack down on the AI slop. YouTube's done a pretty good job on it, but um it's hard to it's hard to stay on this it's get it gets flooded with so much of this stuff. It's so easy to create and put up there, and to just be in the um in the whack-a-mole thing, where you just trying to get rid of it all is is is >> fundamentally like it's fundamentally boring. I think boring is a really good word. >> Boring. And it's and it's annoying to have to uh flip through the AI slop. Yeah. But I think actually, as a civilization, it's just inspiring for authenticity, cuz you want to be real and being raw, which I you know, one of the things I like about podcasts is people just shooting shit and just being themselves in in a long form versus overproduced. Cuz I think AI is making people realize that AI is good at being overproduced. Right. So, there'll be more Let's get that covered. Yeah. Even artists, cuz you're saying like, yeah, they'll use it as tools. Part of me thinks like not really. Like I think I think I think they'll quickly this kind of process of generating a bunch of different options uh and choosing the one you like the most, I think is a really frustrating process for artists. And it I I think it I think AI will will definitely be used extremely effectively as a very uh fine-grained tool um in the image domain. It's editing images, but not like macro editing, but very specific kind of editing that photo Photoshop is increasingly integrated in. Uh I mentioned to you offline, so the whole um iZotope RX group of software that does a lot of the denoising, de- all all the de- removing the wind, all the they they integrate machine learning extremely effectively for working with audio in different kinds of ways. There's a bunch of different other programs that do that. Maybe for like B-roll footage and I same thing on the audio, if you just need a little audio to create a feeling of a scene, yeah, it might be used there in that kind of way. But truly original stuff I've saved videos where I'm doing speaking over music, for example, in an interview. Somebody's playing, and and we have two dialo- two people speaking and laughs, but it's but there's so much bleed coming from the person playing that you can't hear what we're saying, and then we'll split out the voice for that section, the two voices, separate them, and then take the music and separate that stuff. And so, it's really helpful for things like that. And now, once again, quick 30-second thank you to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. We got Uplift Desk for my favorite office desks, BetterHelp for mental health, Element for electrolytes, Finn for customer service AI agents, Shopify for selling stuff online, and Perplexity for curiosity-driven knowledge exploration. Choose wisely, my friends. And now, back to my conversation with Rick Beato. So, you have this video breaking down Sabrina Carpenter's song "Manchild". And you use that as an example of building up people's intuition about the uh music business and how the music production for these popular songs is being done these days. Who's doing the songwriting? How is it being done? And all that kind of stuff. I was wondering if you could speak to that. In that particular song, Jack Antonoff, who was one of the writers, Amy Allen, Sabrina Carpenter, said in some awards thing that there's an old guy on YouTube that says that Sabrina had very little to do with the song. And so, he said in this clip You being the old guy. >> Me being the old guy that well, Sabrina really was the She's amazing and she's the one that wrote everything in the song. It's like So, my response was like, well, why are you guys even included on the songwriting then? >> [laughter] >> So, one of the things you highlight is a lot of people are are included on the list of uh songwriters. >> Yeah. 10 people, 11 people. I mean, you know, like why are the song Why is song of the year have songs that are interpolation meaning that they have melodies from other songs and they're interpolation. They used to call it stealing. And then, um you have songs that are use samples for the whole thing like the Doja song that's out right now. And I said, look, she took a Gotye song and basically took off his melody and she created her own melody over it. It's like, well, it's I mean, it saves time for You don't have to actually create a track. You just can sing over someone else's song that was already successful. >> Yeah, you pointing that out, the song anxiety, it broke my brain. >> I mean, it's so absurd. Yeah, this feels unfair. It feels It's a good song, but it it was also a good song before and it was before that, it was also a good song. Right, 2011 or a Luis Fonsi in 1967. Um so, why is that considered to be in the top songs of the year? It's like, come on, you can't find another song that's not based on that. This is ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And And Doja has some really good songs on her record. Yeah, but why are these the ones that are coming to the top right now? This is interesting. Hey, that that that might be just a criticism of the machinery of the business that that drives them. It's not necessarily Like a lot of these folks are really good musicians. >> [snorts] >> First of all, I think a lot of them are also good like the actual songs that make it to the top are good. I'm I'm a big fan of Bruno Mars. He's a great songwriter. And he's a great musician all around. >> Absolutely. >> You know, it's like a Michael Jackson and reincarnated. >> Super super talented guy. Incredible, right? >> Yes. Uh you mentioned Billie Eilish and her brother write a lot of the songs. >> Yeah. Super talented. I mean, Taylor Swift is unlike anything I mean, that's a historic figure in music. But she's a fundamentally, at least originally, a singer-songwriter. >> Yes. So, that's a I mean, that I mean, I'm sorry, but that that is a like of the kind of music that Rick Beato uh gives props to. She's the she carries the flame forward. She works on her own songs, absolutely. And she But she never has more than two co-writers on things. You want to take a quick bathroom break? >> Yeah. Okay. I have to ask you about this complexity that you're facing on a basically daily basis. >> [sighs and gasps] >> I think uh it's a challenge a lot of YouTube folks experience, but you're just so viscerally experiencing it because a lot of what you do in your channel is celebrate music broadly. And so, as part of that process, you have to sometimes show clips of music. And I think all of that falls under fair use, quite obviously. And so, you get all these YouTube uh copyright claims. And for folks who don't know, if you get three three of those, it's Each one of those can be a strike on the channel and can take down your channel. And you you get some insane amount. You said you got like uh I I think I had a similar thing on the Rick Rubin episode. Like 30 I think you said 13. Yeah. 13. So, what Can you just speak to this whole thing? You've been in a constant battle WMG, UMG, all the all All the All the three-letter name record labels. Right. >> The the music business people. So, what what's the story there? >> Well, this has been going on since the beginning of my channel and I've made videos periodically. When I first started, it was just instant blocks. So, you never knew back in I started It'll be 10 years in June. So, when I play music in a video, YouTubers were not playing music in videos because they didn't because the the content ID things and the takedowns and stuff. So, I would play music and I'd just see what happens. And then, you get a content ID claimer or you realize that people were {quote} unquote blockers and I came up with that term that they would block your video, take down your video. And I I realized at first, it was like anything Guns N' Roses, which is still the case. Guns N' Roses, AC/DC, I mean, many bands. Fleetwood Mac, um Led Zeppelin. And then, and then something happened. There There was that guy in the skateboard on TikTok that had the Ocean Spray thing and and he was listening to "Dreams" by Fleetwood Mac. And that blew up and became a number one song again. And the labels then realized I mean, I'd made many videos about about why this is wrong and it should be fair use and everything. Well, because of that, the labels like, oh, maybe we should rethink this. And then, they just started demonetizing videos. Demonetize means they get all the money >> the money. In a 1-hour video, if they if you use 20 seconds of a clip, Yeah. they get all the money. Yeah. Okay? So, I hired a lawyer finally after the Rick Rubin video. Cuz I thought it was ridiculous. I go over to to to Tuscany. I interview Rick at his house and and um I hired a hired a lawyer to fight this who I'm going to have on my channel. I don't want to say who it is, but he's another YouTuber. Mhm. And uh he had had approached me a couple years ago and and it's not cheap to do. Uh you you're going to do like a public interview with him? I'm going to do an interview with him, yes. Awesome. >> him today about it, actually. >> That'll be great. So, he said, you should fight these cuz every single one of them is fair use. And he went through my my um entire catalog. I have 2,100 videos. And he's fought 4,000 content ID claims and won every single one of them. >> Mhm. 4,000. That's a lot. I mean, when I do top 20 guitar solos, there's 20 content ID claims, you know? It's and it's either it can be either from the sound recording if I use that or if I just play it, it can be from the publisher. That's amazing. Yeah. So, is there I mean, that's it's still he's still a lawyer. Still work. Does that Is there a hopeful thing you can say about the future of Yeah, fight these content ID claims. If it's fair use, if you're not just playing the song and listening to it and cuz a lot of the stuff that are reaction videos or whatever that are not where they play the whole song. I mean, I'm using these things and I'm talking. A lot of the times it's in interviews or it's in I'm breaking down a solo and there's a Yeah, see that's an obvious one, but even reaction videos, right? Yeah, even reaction videos, yes, absolutely. Those are more borderline. Yeah. But I don't know. I love those videos. Absolutely. Like when a person is just sitting there and listening to it and they're like, you know, like a like a voice teacher is listening to a vocal performance >> Yeah, but those are breakdowns. Yeah, those are breakdowns, yeah. I think that the content ID stuff that was happening with these major labels, they would hire third parties that would go out, use AI, and go and um anytime they detect anything, they always go to the biggest channels first to get the most views. It makes sense and stuff. And And they would claim everything that they could and historically, YouTubers never would fight back. They were like, oh, this is easy money. YouTubers never fight back and at these things because they're afraid of their channels taken down. >> Yep. So, Rick Beato said, hold my beer. There you go. >> mean, I mean, it's important. >> it took me years though, Lex. I didn't I've been doing this So, I So, I've been doing it for 1 year now and I'm 9 year I'm 10 years into my channel. So, it took me that long. I mean, hopefully it there's a ripple effect also. It's not just your situation. Hopefully, you don't have to deal with this for much longer. Right. Um how has Spotify changed music? So, sometimes you highlight the fact that they change the nature of music in that it's um the scarcity is not there. But also, a lot of it is like every kind of music is available and so fast and it's so easy. It's easy to explore. It's a commodity. It's like turning a water faucet. Do you think there's there's some good to I mean, there's a lot of good to that, right? Yeah. Have you Did you go through that whole pro I I still remember where I had to basically throw away the albums. I never did that. Well, after you after you uploaded them into your computer? Yes, so there's that two-step process. >> [sighs and gasps] >> One, there's like the hard albums, CDs for me. Okay. >> And then and then you upload them into your computer. Yep. And you save them. And then you uh how do you put it? Allegedly, a friend of yours pirates some extra songs. >> Yep. And then puts them on the computer. So, you have but you have your stash on the computer. You're like, this is my finally selected stash of greatness. Uh sometimes organized by album, sometimes not. And then the big moment for me that was really difficult to do, really difficult to do is throw away that stash. Be- and switch to Spotify. Mhm. Switch to streaming. And basically re- build the stash of playlists and all this kind of stuff. And it was heartbreaking cuz so much love and effort went into that. Both the CD the the stashing of the CD and the stashing of the MP3s in the computer. And then in Spotify, it just seems just effortless. But it helped me discover all kinds of artists I never would have discovered otherwise. And Pandora, I use a lot. Pandora is more um uh prioritizing on the discovery part versus organization part. And that was really wonderful. So, one of the things I I I'll start with the positive that I like about Spotify is that they show view count they show play counts. Whether they're real or not, that's another question. But but they show how many plays songs have. And that's how the charts are based. Does that give you signal that something is listened to a billion times? Does that mean something to you? Yeah, it means that that it's a popular song. Well, that's a massive hit. There's very few songs that have a billion billion plays. Now, the downside of Spotify is the way that they pay their artists. Now, they've lumped in podcasts with that that are getting a cut of this the streaming with the with the music. Um and you know, the search and discovery. I mean, there's there's a there's benefits of algorithms and there's negative things of algorithms. Al- algorithms happen to kind of a lot of many times pigeonhole people into listening to the same genre of music all the time and not expanding their you know, um the discovery of of new music where that you might hear on the radio back in the day where program directors would play things that they liked, right? And you might hear something Ooh, what is that? Oh, that's a new Soundgarden record or something you know, like whoa, I like that. I'm going to go buy check that out. You know, something you might not have heard or something odd. Like one one thing I really love doing on uh Spotify is you can you can have radio. Yep. Meaning like you have a few It's similar to Pandora. Like you can >> [sighs and gasps] >> Okay. This is going to reveal a little too much about myself, but usually when I go work out I'll listen to something like Rage Against the Machine radio. >> [laughter] >> I'm sorry. I need >> What else would you listen to? I I need motivation. Classical music, I don't know. Um but yeah, it's pretty good cuz it recommends a bunch of other stuff I wouldn't even know. Some of it I know, obviously. But akin to the similar to the Rage Against the Machiney type thing, it recommends a bunch of artists and it's like, oh holy shit, that's awesome. So, I don't know. That that discovery works really well. So, this is some of it is a technology thing. Um but that experience is fundamentally more vibrant than I had previously with my stash. That I would just keep a stash and I would listen to the same record over and over and over and over. But yeah, this what's lost is the the I'm sure you love you love this, but listening through the Led Zeppelin records just driving in a car and listening to the whole thing all the way through. Yeah, that's lost. So, I have my old iTunes libraries from 2005 that I listened that I that I've saved the CDs that I uploaded into my computer. Yeah. Anytime I do the I play songs on my um when I'm doing an interview, I always play wave files. I put them in. And it's funny that when I interview a mixer, I'm interviewed this mixing engineer Andy Wallace. And people comment, wow, that the song sounded amazing here. Well, not only are they great mixes that he did, but I'm using wave files in there. And people notice that and these are wave files from from, you know, original encoding, not not remastered things that Spotify keeps doing and adding a bunch of more top end and things like that. That these are the These are actually the the original wave files from off the CD that I ripped 20 years ago. What's your current I mean, people are really curious about that. So, what's your current stack? What are the tools you use? What's your DAW? What's the audio interface? What are the mics? So, I use Pro Tools for the most part, but I also use Logic Mhm. Uh and Ableton. I've got all I've got all those. So, you're mostly on a Mac? I'm only on a Mac. Only on a Mac? Only on a Mac? I'm only the opposite. >> Although we have multiple PCs cuz my kids use PCs. Yeah, just to rebel. They do it for gaming. They like to game. >> Right, that's true. I but like in terms of editing, I hate how how good Mac is. So good. >> It's just integrating the hardware and the software just work well together. Both on the video. >> a Mac, honestly, I wouldn't be talking to you right now. Because I got a G3 that So, the only good thing that a major label did for me is when when my band was on UMG and they bought a they bought me a G3 and a and an SM7 and Pro Tools Digio One, the first prosumer Pro Tools thing. And I learned how to use Pro Tools and that allowed me to learn how to edit video and become a record producer. So, I got to give it give it to Macs for that. So, Pro Tools, I mean, that's still the the standard. That's kind of the industry standard, yeah. I got to ask you cuz I know I've never used Pro Tools. I've used again, I'm a caveman. I've used uh Reaper, I've used Studio One. That's recently I've used that. And for the most time I've used Ableton Live. I feel like I'm using 1% of the power of the tool. Mhm. Like Ableton Live makes me feel like I'm literally just pressing the record button. Ableton's amazing. It really is. >> It is. Yeah. >> But I feel like that I mean, it's designed for people that are doing like all kinds of MIDI stuff and like looping and the the the the What is it? The push buttons with the with the beats and the Is this I mean, I sound I sound really out of touch. But there it's just the power is incredible. Also, it's I think it's not just for recording, it's also for live performances. Yes. So, this is why Studio One has been a little bit nicer for me because it's simpler made for uh recording more so. Any DAW that you get used to, like that's Just use anything. >> Using it, yeah. And and You have to become a master at the things if you want to be a recording engineer or producer, you you become an expert. A lot of the you know, Phineas and Billie Eilish, I think that they use Logic. That's their DAW that they like to use. And Logic, you know, a lot of pros use Logic. You know, I I fire up Logic every couple days and I use it for things. I have I have it on my laptop here and I I Pro Tools and Logic on my laptop. I use both. I use Pro Tools mostly, though. But Pro Tools that's where you feel like at home. I'm an I'm an expert in Pro Tools. Are you using any uh emulation, any amp sims, or it's all real amps? No, I use amp sims. On my laptop here, when I travel and things like that, I use Neural DSP, which I just did a video at their headquarters in Helsinki. Mhm. And their um the CEO Doug Castro is a is a friend of mine. I actually talked to him today, as a matter of fact. And I have a Kemper amp sim, you know, a modeler. I have an Axe-Fx. I've got a Helix. I pretty much have all these things. But for me, I can I have 100 amps in my studio. So, and I have mics set up all the time on cabinets and stuff. I have 100 amplifiers, real amplifiers. Real? Yeah. Wait, sorry. 100? >> 100, yeah. About 100, maybe 95. How do How does one go get to that level? Collecting and being I'll be 64 in uh in April, so. So, you just don't let go. I don't let go, no. Why would you get to 100? Like is it is it tone difference? >> Yes. So, everything it does one thing really well. Uh-huh. And so, it'd be like Okay, so I have this Marshall JCM800 that's modded that that does this one thing. It's got great mids and it's good for this kind of a tune. So, I will pull that out. Then it's like, no, I need more of like a scooped metal tune sound that's more like Metallica or Dream Theater or something. So, oh, I'm going to pull out my my Mesa Mesa Boogie. Or I need a I need something that's chimy that's more like Brian May or like The Edge. I'm going to pull out my Vox AC30. So, everything and and that's that's why I have so many amps because they all do Every amp I have does one thing really well. If it doesn't do well do it well, I get rid of it. And I've And I'm down to 100. >> Down to 100. It's only 100. >> Yeah. Uh but >> get by with probably 75. Come on. But you then you're really running the risk of not having just the right amp. But you're using emulation, so it's That's That's great. I mean, I'm not There's the other side of it, which is the guitar. >> [sighs and gasps] >> I told you offline, I think having multiple guitars is cheating, but whatever. No Nobody agrees with me on this. I only have like one I I do have some side pieces. Um but one main The greatest What do you play? >> Strat, yeah. American Strat. I said I would never do this, but I was in a guitar store I live next to a guitar store in Cambridge. And one day I would always stop by, I don't know why. I just just look at the guitars like I don't really know why exactly, just being the aura great instruments. And I they they brought in this American Strat that had these different shades of It was like a silver. And I just I've never had this feeling. They talk about love at first sight. I just fell in love with the guitar. Can you just speak to the kind of guitars you have and you love? I pretty much have mainly um old-school guitars, right? So, I have Gibsons. I have Fenders. I have PRS guitars. And then I have I have two Gibson acoustics. I have a 1957 country and western that I've had for probably 30 some odd years. It's a great guitar. And I have a J-45 Gibson. And I have a Martin D-28. So, I only have three nice acoustics. And I have a Guild 12-string. And I have a Guild um Nashville-tuned guitars. The low strings are up up the octave. So, the E, A, and D, and G are up the octave. That's Nashville tuning. Six-string though. Like basically what David Gilmour plays on Comfortably Numb in my video. He plays a Nashville-tuned, but with one variation. The low E is up two octaves. So, um he he demonstrates actually the And this how he wrote Comfortably Numb. The the chorus part of it was with this particular guitar that he's playing in the video. What can you say about like the different uh feels that the guitars the acoustics have? Like what How do you know which one to pull pull out? It depends on the kind of part that I'm playing. If I want something with really tight mid-range with not that doesn't have a lot of low low bass. This particular old Gibson that I have, the '57, I will pull that out. It's got very balanced strings and uh you know, mid-range. It doesn't have a lot It doesn't have a booming bottom end, booming low E string or anything or A string. So, it depends on what what kind of sound I'm looking for. If I'm >> about sound versus feel? Yeah. All my guitars play equally well. I have them all set up to where they play well. Um I have a signature Gibson guitar that I've had for 5 years now. When you say Gibson, Gibson Les Paul? Gibson It's a double-cut Les Paul Special, yeah. With P-90 pickups. I don't know what double-cut means, but it sounds impressive. >> cut cut two um Oh. Yeah, as opposed to Les Paul that has one cut. So, it's a Les Paul Special with that has two. I have it over there. My signature guitar, yeah. >> the All right, nice. When you play this, you're going to be like, "Oh my god, this is butter." >> Now I'm I Again, I said it's cheating. I don't >> And what amp do you play through? Do you play through an amp sim or do you have What do you have? Like a >> This is going to be embarr- Yeah, yeah. I use Bias FX. I'm sorry. Lex, I I use amp sims, too, so. I just got the new John Mayer Neural DSP plugin today that I have not tried out. He did a modeling of all his amplifiers that they that Neural DSP did. And um it sounds great. John played it, it sounds just like his amps. Yeah, John is incredible. >> John's great. >> I've been fortunate enough to have dinner with him two times. And uh aside from being an incredible musician, he's also conversationally just >> Yes. I've known John since he was he He lived in Atlanta, but when he got signed. And I knew John from way back then, probably in the early 2000s. I think he doesn't get enough credit. Like he's one of the greatest living guitarists. He's a fantastic guitar player. >> Absolutely. And a celebrator, if that's a word, of great guitar players. >> Absolutely. By way of advice, you started uh your YouTube channel in your mid-50s and found incredible success. You You've had essentially multiple careers. Um is there some wisdom you can extract from that? So, my my theory is that somebody's got to be successful, so why can't it be you? That was That was >> [laughter] >> That's That was my When I started my channel, I mean, I didn't start it to It started by accident with the Dylan video. And um And it really so many people reached out to me. I started it 6 months after that viral video. So many people wrote to me, "Can you teach me this?" Pro musicians, well-known ones that you would who you'd know. "Can you teach me this?" I can't teach you what Dylan did, but I can I can teach you relative pitch, develop your ear that way. But then that I had conservatories writing to me about this stuff from all over the world. "How did you teach Dylan this?" Cuz we made it about four different videos, and they got more and more sophisticated. And um so I thought, "Okay, I'll make some YouTube videos and explain this stuff." This is really why I started, so I didn't have to keep I couldn't answer the emails. There were so many of them. So, I just started making videos on how to train your ear and music theory. And that's really how I started my channel. And and my wife was like, "What are you doing?" I said, "I'm making YouTube videos." "Why?" So, I don't have to keep telling people how I did this stuff. And then all of a sudden, you know, few I had 4,000 subscribers the first month, another 4,000, then hit 100,000 after a year, and then 6 months later 200,000, then 3 months later 300,000. And so I think that one thing that should be said that in modern culture for young people, a lot of them will see YouTube and TikTok and Instagram, and they kind of want to be famous. They want to get the clicks and the views and so on. And that's the thing they chase and they optimize. I think the thing that you're leaving unstated, perhaps, is that you spent many years pursuing the mastery of a craft. And there's a lot of value to getting good at something. Absolutely. Offline, you can actually reveal your journey online, but the thing you're chasing is not uh fame. It's getting good at something. And I think actually what happens is even if the thing you get good at is not the thing that you become famous for, if that's the thing you're that ends up happening, it's still like getting good at one thing kind of somehow relates to getting good at another thing. Somehow that'll lead you to get better at getting better at the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. But if you're just chasing fame and trying to figure out how do I do the viral thing or so on, it just seems to You might actually get there, but it'll be unfulfilling and not long-lasting. My theory of my channel has always been make videos on things I'm interested in and at first I thought, "Oh, nobody's going to watch an old white-haired guy on YouTube." Yeah. That was kind of my thing. Well, that was not correct. Um and then it's like, "We'll just make videos on stuff I'm interested in." It just so happens that other people are interested in the same things I'm interested in. And keep learning. And I When I produce bands, I never let them take my picture ever. And I never let them record me in the studio. There's virtually no pictures of any band I ever produced. So, from 1999 to 20 15 when I December 2015 when that Dylan video came out, no one took my picture. There were no pictures of me on the internet. >> You're fully behind the camera kind of guy, meaning like >> No. No. No pictures. No No pictures with people. "Hey, can we take a picture?" I said, "No, no pictures with people." And now you're like you're the talent. You're the face. >> [laughter] >> No, I mean, but the Again, the thing you're leaving unstated there is is like you spent a lot of years you're teaching music. Like really exploring music, trying a music career of like trying to create, trying to produce, trying to be a musician, all these not just trying, like being getting extremely good at it. I just I think in modern culture, there's a sense you want to skip that part. I want to be famous. I want you know, this and that is a thing that's not going to be in most cases effective uh as a primary thing to chase. So, I have an undergrad in classical bass. I have a master's from New England Conservatory in jazz guitar. Then I taught college for I taught jazz studies for 5 years from '87 to '92. Then I got a publishing deal, my my publishing deal in 1992 with Polygram publishing. And then I became a producer when I was 37 not having no idea how to engineer. I taught myself engineering. And then YouTube. I taught myself how to edit videos. And then you taught yourself how to interview. And I taught myself to interview. I've never done an interview before. I never was like an interviewer, what? You haven't just done that. You've taught yourself not how to do you just YouTube but YouTube shorts. Yes. Different Totally different thing. Totally different skill. And then not just YouTube but like how to be like a There's a cuz you're both a YouTuber and and like a musician who posts stuff on YouTube. YouTuber means like you're thinking about stuff like thumbnails and >> Which I make my own thumbnails. I've always made my own thumbnails. By the way, before I forget, I think I I speak for the entirety of the internet thanking you for how you introduce your videos and how you close them. Cuz you This is a big part of YouTube where people have a 30-minute introduction to to a 5-minute video. You just go straight in. >> [laughter] >> That's really wonderful. That's I mean and on all fronts. I mean I suppose that has to do with the production skills that you have of understanding cutting cutting the fat. >> Yep. Yeah, cutting cutting the fluff cutting the bullshit. I'll just get straight to the core of the thing. I've heard you talk about maintaining friendships for a long time. You said never waste a friendship. Can you elaborate on that? Yeah. That's one of my things is that I really value the time I've spent with people, friendships, and keeping in touch with people. I talk to each one of my siblings multiple times a week. I talk to my sisters probably every night, my two sisters. Um I I have friends from college. I got friends from growing up. I have friends from, you know, both colleges I went to. I have friends from all different eras in my life that I keep in touch with and visit whenever I can and And you must have met some incredible humans and incredibly weird and interesting humans throughout your life. Mhm. [snorts] So it's worth it the effort to to connect and reconnect. I mean, it's pretty much everything in life. Not nothing means anything more than the friendships that you make and your and your family. Yeah, what's the point of this whole thing? Aren't you right? What's the role of music in in the human experience? Well, hopefully to enlighten people and to create the soundtrack of their life. It is, right? >> Yeah. Music music does something. I'll I'll get sometimes when I'm alone I'll listen listen to a song and there's nothing quite like a song that makes me truly feel like feel alive in whatever that is, sadness or hope or excitement or um when I'm working out listening to Rage Against the Machine like protest or as I was listening to the Metallica the I was really listening to the set that they played in in Moscow just hyped like truly hyped. I was like pacing listening to it. And there's nothing like that. I've never found anything. And I don't know what that is in the human psyche that's that but I'm so glad we found it. We humans created instruments that can vibrate strings and together create harmonies and melodies and and ones that reverberate through generations and they carry that. It's one of the greatest things that humans ever did creating music. And all of that led up to you, some guy being listened to by millions of people on the internet. >> [laughter] >> This is all a simulation, Rick. And I've been a fan of yours for a long time. Like I told you, this is crazy to meet you. Same, Lex. Thank you for everything you do for the world, for celebrating music for helping us discover and rediscover some of the incredible musicians and songs that have been created over the over the decade over the centuries. Um thank you for being who you are and thank you for talking today. Thanks. I appreciate it. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Rick Beato. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now let me leave you with some words from Friedrich Nietzsche as I often do. Without music life would be a mistake. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.