Researcher suggests use of psychedelic DMT can unlock hidden subconscious realities | Reality Check

Welcome back to Reality Check. I'm your host, Ross Coulthart, and today I'm delighted to introduce here at the Conscious Life Expo in Los Angeles, Danny Goler. Somebody I've wanted to talk to for a very long time. Danny's an independent researcher and inventor known for his unconventional explorations at the intersection of physics, psychedelics, and linguistics. His most publicized claims centers around 2020. While under the influence of DMT, dimethyltryptamine, a potent psychedelic, he alleges he discovered a hidden language by viewing the smoke or vapor through a focused laser beam. Specifically, he describes inhaling DMT vapor and shining a low-powered red laser through it, revealing intricate dynamic patterns that resemble a structured script or glyphs. He claims these aren't mere hallucinations, but an objective language of reality, a universal code embedded in the fabric of existence, potentially linking quantum mechanics, consciousness, and ancient scripts like Hebrew or Sanskrit. And you also run a nonprofit called Code of Reality. >> That's what we call it done in cheek, but you know. >> So, you look like a a perfectly normal person for a chap who's basically inhaled a hell of a lot of psychedelic drugs. >> Yeah. >> Um, is DMT dangerous? >> Uh, uh, Aldous Huxley used to say if uh, you feared death by astonishment. >> Yeah. >> It's funny, I've used DMT myself, which is half the reason why I really want to speak to you. For me it was life-changing. It was profound. And I found it it taught me things and helped me understand things in the months after I took it the first time. Do you find that yourself? >> Yeah, but I I think that it depends on how deep you go and how well you integrate it, but overall, yes, absolutely. >> So, tell me about this experiment. How did you discover it? >> Well, it's a it's a very long story, but the short version of it is that I was I had a set I had a set of experiences on DMT that was, and it's going to sound weird, out of the norm even for DMT. So, it was as realistic as you are sitting to next to me right now. And [snorts] that sets of experiences made me no longer comfortable with the idea that this is just a mere hallucination or something in my head. And I asked myself, "Okay, well, if the if whatever we're experiencing on DMT might be real, as in existing on its own side even when we're not looking, then how we can we potentially determine that conclusively?" And when I looked around, I realized that the answers that I I I saw from the scientific side and from the spiritual side were simply non-satisfactory to me. So, I decided that what I'm going to do is I'm going to try and answer that question myself. And that started a very long process of years in which I was trying to think about it in every which way, try to make some fundamental assumptions about what we what must be true if this space is real. And eventually, after years, I think after maybe 5 to 7 years from that point, I realized that coherent light is supposed to be doing something when we're observing psychedelic spaces. And sure enough, I turned on a laser, and has to be diffracted, and I smoked DMT >> So, you're putting it through a prism. >> Uh it's not a prism. Uh that would be refraction, so that that's diffraction. So, it basically splits the light into just like you have the the double slit experiment, only many many many slits. So, essentially creates a band of light on the wall. And when you look at that while you're on DMT, you see what I observed and now thousands of people all over the earth observe so far, there seems to be some kind of language in there, but it's not appearing in the same way that people tend to see language in psychedelic spaces or in meditative spaces. It seems to be more coherent, super HD, and it it's suspended in its own space in some way. So, it's doing a thing on its own accord. It's very similar to how you look through a microscope. >> Yeah. >> There's a whole world in there that you're exploring. >> So, what is it? I mean, I I think the the skeptical explanation for your observations argues that it's essentially an intense visual hallucination. And this is what orthodox science says. >> Yeah. They say that by binding to serotonin receptors in the brain, it produces geometric patterns and entity encounters. And the laser beam, they speculate, could amplify pareidolia, the tendency to see meaningful shapes in random stimuli. >> Yeah. >> [snorts] >> Through light diffraction in the vapor, creating optical illusions akin to laser speckle patterns in physics demos. And as I'm saying this, it's not really washing to me because it's not a laser speckle pattern. You're seeing a very formed language, aren't >> And you can say that the speckle can work as as a form of scaffolding for the mind to basically attach content to, which does make sense. But the way to question whether it can So, the question whether the brain can somehow produce this under the influence of DMT with with coupled with the with the fractal laser, that's not a good question because the answer to that will always be yes. Simple It doesn't matter what you do. The answer is yes. >> I read a book by Rick Strassman called The Spirit Molecule, which is fascinating. And he, of course, was a psychedelics researcher as well. And he also documented not just entity encounters, the machine elves, but this weird geometric visions, a shared phenomenological space, which sounds very similar to what you've seen. >> Yeah. And I think that that is actually the deeper question, which is does the DMT space itself uh is something we hallucinate or we actually see, which is the question that I started with. What the laser allows us to do is to have a repeatable experience across individuals. >> Which is a perfect example of good orthodox science in many ways, isn't it? >> Yeah. And and it doesn't it does have this uh really there kind of quality. It's hard to describe, but even when you quote-unquote hallucinate, hallucinations have a trajectory. They evolve. They change. They change across people. Even if people report similar things, they they don't always agree on exactly what they're saying. In the case of the laser and what you see in it, at least to the to to to date, it seems like what everybody's seeing is the the exact same thing. We can even point to the same thing. >> what I don't understand because you're seeing literally a language, a symbology, through the refracted laser beam with DMT smoke in the middle. >> No, no, not necessarily. That that that part is uh I don't Yeah, that you don't need to have a smoke in the way. >> Uh cuz that's what I was I was about to say. So basically, it's not reflecting refracting off the smoke. >> No. >> It's a consequence of what the DMT's doing inside your brain. >> Well, when it's bouncing off a particular surface, yes. >> Okay. I know you're very limited in your science, but uh and so am I. >> Sure. >> Try and give me a scientific explanation for what you think's going on there. >> So I actually I do have a theoretical framework for this, but it sounds a little bit out there. So I think that what's going on here is as maybe you're aware, the holographic principle is one of the most promising frames in physics at the moment. >> the whole idea that we're living in an illusion. It's >> Well, in a in a whole So, basically the whole universe is a projection from a two-dimensional filament. This idea was uttered before, but it was popularized by Leonard Susskind, who was a very famous physicist. And now, [snorts] even people like Sean Carroll, who's an example of a very mainstream uh physicist who doesn't usually play with the fringe, even he says that he thinks it's the most promising idea in physics. Essentially, the the whole universe is projected from some kind of a two-dimensional filament on the outskirts of the universe. >> See, what I find fascinating is I've recently been trying to get my brain around quantum physics, quantum mechanics. And I I've just read a fantastic book by a guy called Rick Patelho called The Full Extent, and he tries to explain to a layman like me the implications of quantum physics in relation to this mechanistic view that we've got of our universe, that this place that we're in right now, this world that we're in right now. It's physical. We can touch it. And if it's a physical object or a a visual object, we can we can look at it and we can analyze it and test it. And one of the things that fascinates me that lies at the heart, I think, of the dilemmas that are expressed by people appearing at this conference, which is, let's be honest, very woo, very spiritual. They are they're exploring things that can't be mechanistically described in science. There's no deterministic cause and effect. You you can't you can't For somebody who's saying that they're remote viewing, you can't measure that. It's only experiential. Similarly, with what you're describing, how the hell do we scientifically verify something like that when you you you know, you're you're repeating the experiment, and as I understand it, you're seeing and other people are seeing the same symbology, aren't you? >> Yes. Yes. Cuz I think they're looking at the same surface. So, the thing I started saying with the hologram, essentially what I think is going on is that uh in in arrangement of a holo- hologram, you have a light that splits into two. And then each beam, one hits an object and one goes through a sets of mirror and hits the first beam and it measures its phase. So, when that interaction happens at the screen that on which the hologram is being recorded, that information records as the full light light field of the object that was recorded. So, in a in a picture, you just you have amplitude. So, if you take a picture of something, you can only look from one direction and that's how the information was stored. But because you also have the phase in a hologram, it stores information no matter what angle you're going to look from, every angle contains the full representation of that object in space. That's that's how holograms work. >> So, what are you doing here then? Is it cracking the matrix? >> Essentially, we're looking through the veil. I think our conscious experience is that reference light that measures the the uh the phase and this is why what I think is going on with the lasers we're looking at the light field before it becomes the content we see. It's almost think of it like the pre-render. >> So, it's almost like the the computer code behind the graphic user interface we see on our computers. >> what I think is going on. And that's actually testable. >> So, how do you test that? >> You need to figure out what constitutes the change of the angle of the of the reference beam. >> So, okay, talk me through this really slowly, Danny. >> So, if we can figure out what constitutes the angle, if you change an angle on the of the reference beam, >> Cuz when you change the angle, what happens? >> Uh it distorts the image that is being recorded. So, a similar thing should we should expect a similar thing to happen if that's correct. >> And why would that be a verification that this is something real? >> Well, at least it would be uh verification that we're in the in the right direction. >> Right. >> When you have a theory about what how things work, you test it by doing a thing that will verify it. And if it at at it does a result that you expect, well, then it gives you a hint that you're in the right direction at least. >> So, when you see this symbology, obviously we can't film or video through the human eye, and you're seeing it under the influence of a psychedelic, but is there a way of getting the visuals of what you say you're seeing and putting it onto a computer and having a look at it and analyzing it? >> So far no, but we're we're trying to do everything we can. We we managed to take a a frozen snapshot of it. >> How the hell did you do that? >> Actually just took a very high resolution image of it and then put it in Apple Vision Pro. >> Just with a normal camera? >> Uh yeah, just very up really really close with like macro lenses that that we put really close to the light field. >> So so I mean clearly the camera wasn't stoned. How how how is it that that a camera can see what you need to use DMT to be able to see? >> does Well, I guess that's a correct way of phrasing it. Somehow either the information passes through so something is being encoded in light that we don't quite understand. So maybe there's another direction to light that we don't quite understand. Or what it means is that it's not appearing in the same way that we think that it appears. It might be that the speckle is scaffolding the on on top of which the brain actually projects that information. >> Now I was doing a bit of background research and I I there's some mention of optical physics work done at the University of Arizona where they've used laser-induced plasma filaments in air showing how lasers can create visible patterns in gases and the suggestion from the skeptics is that that potentially mirrors what you're describing. >> They would have to explain the content. The content is the same across everybody. So if you have by definition if you have a stochastic pattern which means a random pattern then if you postulate that psychedelics what they do is they basically excite certain regions of the brain to produce certain kinds of content, you wouldn't expect it to be the same across individuals. You might have similarities, but you wouldn't see the exact same thing. That's that will still have to be addressed. >> I mean, what you could do, I guess, while you're looking at these symbols is draw them and write them down. >> hard. With with the with the frozen image, it's possible. With the real code, the way it appears in the in real life, it's moving all the time, so it's very difficult to do. >> I do know this research. I've read about this in science journals that that they're developing technology that can actually tap into the optic nerve and see what the eye is seeing. Have you heard about that technology? >> Yeah, it's not quite what it's doing. It it still relies on a lot of reformulation of the signals. So, something in the future like that can really really help, but yeah. >> So, Danny Goler, give me your take on what you think you're seeing. What do you think it is? >> I think it is the language that the brain speaks in order to make reality what it is. >> Wow. You're literally looking at the source code. >> Well, at least of our own consciousness. That's what I think it is. So, that there's actually just to to what you said, there's a I have a friend who is an MIT guy, and he said that actually there's a relatively easy way to test this. He said what you need to do is you need to train a model to create a Rosetta Stone of each person and their brain waves when they're looking at something as measured by EEG, let's say. Then, if you look at a random pattern, what you would expect if it's a hallucination is that the the the symbols at the signals that you trained the model to see, they should still differ between people. But, if it's trained to see whatever letter that it is that we drew, and then it repeats across individuals when they're looking into the laser, or at least an image of the laser, then you have something serious, because then you should not expect it to be the same. >> It's funny, I talked to government scientists in my country, Australia, who speak with some sadness about the way that uh psychedelics, particularly mushrooms, have been so stigmatized and made taboo because of a general fear of illicit drugs and they want to help people with trauma, particularly veterans who've come back from horrible wars where they're suffering trauma and there's a very limited psilocybin study happening in Australia at the moment where it's having astonishing results, I'm told, to help people who've had PTSD. How big a problem for your work has been that there's such a societal stigma about psychedelics and DMT in terms of getting people just to even take you seriously. >> You know, I might have gotten lucky. Uh actually the same like so because I don't come from academia, I feel like I get lucky because I get to say what I want and I don't have to worry about my my job. Um and there's a certain strident tone with which I say it that I think it amassed enough interest, but the truth is that I'm not interested in just bulldozing my way through this. Uh I do think that what we discovered needs to go through the proper ringer of science. We're very very uh happy to do so. But uh so I I I'll be honest with you. I don't I didn't really experience that. I I've actually experienced more welcome from even mainstream scientists. >> Sure. Yeah. What do you think is happening when you undergo a DMT experience? Do you Do you think it's simply just a psychedelic hallucination or is it something else? >> I would defer and encourage everybody to read Reality Switch Technologies by Andrew Gallimore, Dr. Andrew Gallimore. Um and he makes a very strong case for why even from a neuroscientific perspective uh what is most likely happening is that we're changing an address in the mind space, basically. >> We're literally going somewhere else. >> Exactly. Or as he more recently been saying, it's more that you're flooded with real information, but it's coming to you. >> Because if we are if our brain is as some of the people I talked to about UFOs talked to me about, an attenuator, a transmitter and a receiver, it means that we can physically geo-locate in our minds to something else. >> Very possible, yes. >> So, do you think that we're actually geo-locating when we take DMT? >> I think we are localizing this operational space, yes. >> Which is probably already there. It's just that we don't know how to tap into it. >> like what's possible to compute. You are aware of more information that is possible to fold into your computational reality. >> A lot of people here watching this will probably be a little bit scared of psychedelics. And of course, we're not encouraging anybody to take an illicit drug. We emphasize that. But if for the purposes of science, Danny Galler wants to do that. By the way, it's decriminalized in Colorado. So, that's one of the ways that he's been able to do this. >> Yes. >> Um what goes on when somebody takes DMT? Talk me through a typical DMT experience. >> know if there's a typical one, but it definitely the first thing to say is definitely not for everybody. Uh and just like being an astronaut is not for everybody. So, uh it can be very confounding and also very scary for some people. I always say if your barrier and uh tolerance for novelty is pretty low, it's definitely not for you. Uh but if you are interested in something interesting, it definitely doesn't get more wild and uh and uh just something that you really are not familiar with. It It's completely orthogonal to anything that humans have ever experienced. >> I'll I'll I'll mean I'll I'll give you my account of what happened to me. I mean, I'm I'm a big bloke. And so, I took three puffs on a vape with a friend of mine in Australia. Nothing happened. >> Mhm. >> And I'm sitting there and he's off with the pixies, with the machine elves. And uh he sort of mumbled to me, "Take another one. And take a big one." And I did. And then all of a sudden, I was somewhere else. But it was like I was pulled somewhere else. I I had a physical sensation of going through a white wall in front of me. >> Mhm. >> And I was like, "Oh, wow." And then I'm in an absolute I I I felt with an absolute certainty I was in another world. >> Mhm. >> Does that accord with your experience? >> Absolutely. Yeah, in fact, DMT is known for that, that it basically takes you somewhere else. Uh what got me interested in DMT originally was a Joe Rogan rant many years ago before his podcast uh in which he said, "It doesn't feel like you're in another dimension, you are in another dimension." >> a very strong statement. >> And that's And that I knew I was hooked. I was like, I Whatever that is, I need to know what that is. That's uh that's on something I I have to experience. But it really feels like you you don't feel high. >> No. >> You It feels the opposite of being high. It's almost like veils are lifted. You feel more clear, but then content flows in that you simply not familiar with. >> I look I I don't know if this is me being a bit corny, but I felt kinder and more tolerant and more peaceful for weeks afterwards. >> Why is that corny? >> [laughter] >> Because I'm I'm a very cynical soul. >> Oh, I see. >> You know, um you know, I think a lot of people that come particularly to a festival like Conscious Life Expo, um they expect everybody to be walking around in caftans and beads talking about love and peace, you know, it's very easy to be cynical. But really at the heart of it, I was quite struck by how peaceful and loving it was. I felt welcome. >> That's That's an incredible way of of uh describing it. Uh my position about all this stuff here in the conference and in general is a very similar to to that uh you know, I like quoting Terence McKenna and this this quote definitely goes to the core of it. He said, "We can always be skeptical of the enterprise of science, but no one is at liberty to abandon common sense." And I think that common sense does follow you there, but science currently in its current form is a little bit limited because they decided that one modality fits all and that's just simply not true. >> Well, mechanistic science, deterministic science doesn't really have an explanation for what you're talking about. So, their default is just to say that Danny's having a hallucination. >> Sure. >> What's the rebuttal to that? How do you rebut that assertion? >> rebut, you provide evidence. And that's what we're trying to do. So, currently I can't say that I can show someone to someone to someone like something someone like Sean Carroll and say here, and he's going to be convinced. But I do think we'll get there. I do think we will get some information that will make it beyond a doubt that this is actually real information. >> So, talk me through how you do a test, a controlled experiment to verify what you're seeing. >> Well, currently it mostly relies on comparing between different individuals to stories. We built a little tool called veilbreak.ai. It's almost like a repo for the laser experiment, just like GitHub is for code. And people can go there, and it's free, and they can do it anonymously if they want, and they can leave all the information about their experiment. Slowly but surely we're gathering more and more data, and currently that's the way that we're trying to go about it. But the holy grail that will give us a handle is to see if we can induce any change to either what the code appears to be or to the observation itself. So, if let's say I can turn on some kind of a magnetic field around somebody's head and they see it reliably reliably they can see change to the code, and different people can see the same thing, well, that that already puts you in a different boat. >> Because we already know, don't we, that people are seeing the same thing under DMT. It's not just randomized imagery. People talk about machine elves, for example. >> But those are descriptions that are very easy to to kind of miss each other on. So, that I would say that still can be like if I want to steal man the other side of the argument, like the more, you know, mainstream argument, I could chuck it to archetypes. I can say, "Hey, maybe the human brain has some kind of a, you know, architecture that just sees these kind of archetypes." Now, I happen to not think that, of course, but I can I'm always playing the game of trying to think how it must feel to be on the receiving end of these kind of claims if you've never done DMT or maybe never will. So, in that regard, I feel like s- reports about beings that are a little flimsy, even though they can carry some water. What I like about the fact that we can see the code is that it's so highly specific and so repeatable that it allows it it really lends itself nicely to a real scientific investigation. >> Why can't you reproduce the images that you see? Is it just not possible when you're in a state of psychedelic halluc- not not hallucination, but when you're under the when you're under the influence of DMT, is it not possible to use a pencil just to try and describe the symbology? >> In in in reality, when you're looking at it, it the symbols are very tiny. There's millions of them, and they're moving a lot. That's what makes it very difficult, but in a frozen image, we now will probably be able to do so, yeah. >> Have you been able to mathematically analyze the glyphs? Is there anything mathematical about their placement, their positioning? >> Currently, no. No. But we But we do have replications of the codes. So, people did write it down, and >> And do you see anything Do you see a language there at all? >> I can show you uh the the symbols that we put so far that we a lot of people agreed on, but I don't know if it's language. It definitely looks like symbols. >> Do you find expectation plays a a role >> No. >> in what happens? >> Whatsoever, no. I even told people to look for something else, and they and they still saw what they're supposed to see. >> Oh, really? Yeah. >> I told them I threw their scent off, and they said, "I didn't see what you said, but I saw these weird Asian-looking characters." >> And are you the first person to do this, to put this through refracted light? >> As far as I know, I'm the first one to put two and two together that you can do this with a diffracted laser. That being said, I do have an occasional email of people saying, "Oh, we used to play with lasers like 15 years ago, and we saw something similar. We just never thought of anything of it." >> Why could a camera like I'm still wrestling with that idea why would a conventional camera be able to see what you're seeing going into that other realm if you like? >> No idea. >> Ah, good. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> There's no explanation. >> Well, so far. I mean, look, the reality is that I've kind of created a lot of hype around this, which is which is nice because a lot of some very smart people actually entered the picture and helping us with this investigation. But because it's happening in the limelight to some degree, there's a certain level of expectation of this project that no other scientific endeavor ever is expected of. So, like, you know, science progress sometimes takes 20 years in some domains. So, we don't know, but hopefully it won't take us 20 years, but hopefully within a year or two we'll have something to report. >> The thing I find fascinating about this is if it's true that you are going to other realms and you're finding a way of doing a controlled, maybe even peer-reviewed study that allows you to verify this scientifically, you'd be the world's first psychonaut, wouldn't you? You're you're literally traversing >> I mean, there's a lot of psychonauts in the world. >> No, but you'd be traversing consciousness. You'd be exploring backstage in human consciousness. >> I do think we're starting to play with real possibilities of actual sending potentially like representers from human like real diplomats from humanity to the other realms, yes. >> Have you had conversations with beings while you've been under the influence of DMT? >> Yes, talk to them all the time. >> And what what do they say? >> Uh you want it verbatim? >> Yeah. What's [laughter] what sort of things What sort of things are they saying to you? >> That this is a simulation. >> So, they're telling you it's a simulation. >> Yes, they showed it to me. >> And do you believe that they're intelligent? That this is a real intelligence? >> Oh, yeah, yeah. They're way more intelligent than us, for sure. Yeah. >> I've had people tell me that they've been there and the beings have said to them, "What are you doing here? You shouldn't be here." >> That happens, too, yeah. >> Depends depending where you travel, I guess. >> So, they have I guess, what you would call their uh government, but they also have just, you know, it's almost like when you go to the psychedelic space, I know how wild it must sound to a lot of people, but it's almost like going to interdimensional New York. Like just grabbing somebody off the street and asking but asking them about the secrets of the universe. They might know something. They might just try and sell you a watch, you know. >> Yeah. So, you literally walk up to a being and tell me and say tell me what's what's happening here. >> Well, I've identified, well, again, just to be clear, according to what I believe is going on, of course, I've identi- I've identified a signal that belongs to their government. So, like I've only I'm only reporting the things that I know that is being expressed to me directly by kind of people in charge versus people yeah. >> Are you welcome there? >> It seems that way, yeah. >> They don't resent your intrusion on their world if they are a real world. >> know me very well. I'm not claiming to have any special relationship with them. A lot of people visit them and I know a lot of people report them and have a pretty positive relationship with them. If I understand correctly from them what's going on is that we entered the stage where we start to understand things on a level that very quickly we will figure it out anyway. So, they have a protocol to help us understand and kind of cushion the ontological shock, basically. >> There's a friend of mine in Europe who works in a laboratory and he created some pure DMT himself, obviously illegal and not something we recommend for folks to back at home. But he intravenously applied it to himself and [snorts] basically went on an hours-long psychedelic experience. Do you do that at all? >> I've done it once. I've I went on for 5 hours. >> 5 hours? >> 5 hours and it was 464 mg, which to the best of my knowledge it's a world record so far. >> 464 mg? >> Yes. >> And so, one of the things that struck me, and a lot of people I talked to about this who've had these experiences, they say it all feels so rushed cuz you know when you vape it, when you smoke it, you've really only got about 2 or 3 minutes before you come back into reality. >> Mhm. >> And you come back with a plonk and it's always quite frankly disappointing. Uh cuz it is such an intriguing environment. So the intravenous application of DMT is a way to have an intense experience. Do you ever get worried about getting lost? >> DMT is not one of these things that I think you can get lost in. I think that LSD you can get lost I think you can get lost in mushrooms. DMT is just too matter-of-fact for me. I'm sure that some people with, you know, tendency for schizophrenia and things like this, maybe you should not play with this. Sure. But if you have a pretty stable mind, I think you're fine. I think DMT is just almost like going visiting a place. Now obviously if it gets intense, you you can always ask people to stop that, but >> Maybe explain to our audience what is DMT and how does it work in the human body? >> Uh DMT stands for dimethyltryptamine. It's a neuromodulator. Our body makes it and it's involved in a lot of living things. Uh it's We don't really know what it's doing in the system, but we now have strong reasons to believe that at least we know in rats, uh study that was done by by um Dr. John Dean in 2019, he discovered that there's comparable amounts of the precursor to DMT in their uh intracranial fluid to dopamine and serotonin during waking hours. So we do know that if humans anywhere near what rats have, that means that we have comparable amounts to very regular neurotransmitters like your dopamine and so so so it's it's doing something substantial in the system. >> And how was DMT discovered? >> Uh whoa. Let's see if I can I think it was in the 19 50s. I forget who synthesized it first. It's in I should probably know this. I forget the name, but I think in the 1950s if I'm not mistaken. >> Thinking ahead, if you are able to master this, what what applications could it have? How could it help us as humanity? >> Well, if it's real, then it can help us understand what the world really is in deeper ways. But if it's what we discovered is a very fancy trick of the brain, it will still teach us something very fundamental about consciousness. >> And where do you err at the moment? Do you I mean obviously you're keeping an open mind. Uh scientific skeptical orthodox science basically says this is all rubbish. It's just pareidolia. It's you know you're seeing hallucinations. You know this has been recorded before through other systems. How do you I mean what do you say? >> Nothing. You you proceed to try and find proof and evidence. I mean that's how science works and that's how it should work. >> What Although if I may >> It is and I'm saying it only a little bit in tongue-in-cheek. Um it does remind me a little bit of Copernicus. Cuz essentially the Catholic Church said we don't want to look. >> Yeah. >> And it's kind of the same thing. >> Are there people who tell you that what you're doing is demonic that you're inviting yourself into other realms that are dangerous? >> I mean people think of this all the time. But I've I've also visited you know what you would call angelic realms and everybody knows very well what I'm doing. So >> What do you mean you've visited angelic realms? >> Well, if you want to say that I'm inviting demons, right? I think we can tell the difference when we're in the presence of one or in the presence of something more divine. >> Right. >> And if you don't think we can tell the difference then I don't know how you think, you know, right? But if you're saying that you think you know this, then I think I know when I'm in the presence of one or the other and I have definitely been in the presence of divine beings. >> Wow. >> And the irony is that with all these conspiracy theories that we believe in, which of course humans conspire all the time, the truth is not only not a conspiracy. It's not a secret. It's just a a matter of do you understand? Can you open your mind to understand? >> I'm fascinated by the way that psychedelics have been so demonized in our society and yet they serve often quite a useful therapeutic purpose. The history of it's quite interesting, isn't it? Why would conventional science, do you believe, do you believe there's a deliberate attempt to suppress understanding of what this can do? >> You know, I actually don't. Uh I think that it's mostly a product of uh institutions freaking out because there was a lot of very irresponsible instances. I mean, people say, you know, the government outlawed LSD because people would free their minds. But again, >> But I mean, ironically, the the the people who committed the most crimes with LSD with the CIA. >> Sure. But also >> I don't I mean, I just find it mind-blowing that here we are in California, and what was it, 50, 60 years ago, the CIA was, without knowledge of the people involved, injecting prisoners with LSD. >> Awful. >> Massive quantities of LSD. And similarly doing it in a brothel up in San Francisco. I mean, the crimes being committed by the government to try and find a way of controlling the human mind. >> Yeah, no, absolutely. Uh and but they failed. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, like, they knew that it's not actually doing the the thing that they wanted it to do. I think it was mostly because babies were drifting to traffic by themselves. I think that's that that was the main reason as to why they outlawed it, honestly. >> So, what does say Andrew Gallimore say about what you're seeing? >> So, Andrew started by kind of chucking this to just another person telling him something wild. Uh but after a few years that he saw that this was gaining traction, he decided to comment on it. We then reconvened. We spoke about it, and he relaxed a lot of around how I go about this because he understood that I'm I am interested in what's true and not just kind of pushing an agenda. >> Now, forgive me if I get any of this wrong, Danny, but um ayahuasca, ayahuasca, that's essentially naturally created DMT. Is that correct? >> Uh no, ayahuasca is basically a brew that mixes another plant that uh allows for DMT to be digested. >> Ah, right. Okay. So, essentially it's releasing DMT. One one plant releases DMT in a way. So, it's the same kind of experience, is it? >> Uh it's just coats it just suppresses the the enzymes in the stomach that break down DMT, so you can ingest it. Cuz if you swallow a bag of pure DMT right now, nothing will happen. >> Right. >> You have to smoke it. But if you do it in with the MAOIs, then you're basically allowing the body to digest it and then it lasts longer. >> Right. >> hours. >> So, the ayahuasca experience, a lot of people who've had ayahuasca, they describe to me that it's almost a therapeutic, that it's a kind of a life review thing. Do you find that with DMT as well? >> Less. DMT feels more like the main artery. I always describe ayahuasca as the human channel and DMT as the full spectrum. >> So, you've done ayahuasca, obviously. >> Yeah. >> What's the difference, key? What in terms of experience? >> more visceral. It's very um the human drama kind of vibe. DMT is more aliens and, you know, 3 million years in the future kind of vibe. >> And do you think they are aliens? >> I mean, they're not us. So, yeah, absolutely. >> It's interesting because this all sounds wacky. And for a lot of our audience, you know, we're in this mechanistic world, this this physical reality. And yet I'm fascinated by having read Rick Strassman's book. Quantum mechanics makes it clear that everything in this reality is a product of consciousness. >> Yeah. >> That it's consciousness that derives what we see. And observation actually affects our reality. >> Yeah. >> And that's scientifically proven in quantum physics. >> That's that's that's already a stretch. That's a lot of a lot of physicists would disagree with that statement. >> Really? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But we are wrestling, aren't we, with the fact that we've got this mechanistic view of science and then the new quantum mechanics. And it sounds to me like what you're doing is you're you're at the edge of consciousness studies in the field of quantum mechanics because a lot of what you're describing accords with what quantum mechanics says about the universe. >> I do think that what consciousness is is quantum mechanics solidifying into one channel. This feels like one one classical world. So, they are interlinked. I do think that consciousness is basically what quantum mechanics collapsing into one reality feels like, basically. >> So, cuz this I mean we've had a lot of talks with people today in other interviews talking about whether the human brain is just a meat computer. >> Mhm. >> And that when we die, our neurons die with us and the illusion of consciousness, the illusion of free will, the illusion of a soul dies with us and just rots and falls back into the ground. The interesting thing to me is that the implications of what modern science is now starting to say is that consciousness is non-local. And that we're able to tap into a field. >> Yeah. >> Even a possible cosmic internet. >> I would say that there's there's some evidence for this, yes. >> Have you ever come across people, scientists, creatives who've described how they've had these incredible ideas that have just come from nowhere. I mean I was I was reading, for example, about Paul McCartney. He woke up and he had the the music for Yesterday, one of his most famous songs, in his head. And all he did was get out of bed and write it. And he had no idea where it had come from. It was a perfectly formed piece of music. And he couldn't explain and still can't explain where that came from. And then there's the guy who developed the idea of the benzene molecule. And he had a dream of a snake eating its tail. And right through science and creativity with artist Salvador Dali. He used to he used to apparently go to sleep in a chair with a pin in his hand and when he woke up when the the he dropped the pin and he'd wake up as the pin hit the floor and then he would get his ideas about all of his floppy clock faces and all these wacky ideas of what he was seeing in his dreams and immediately start rendering them into art. Do you think it's possible that what you're tapping into with DMT, dimethyltryptamine, is illustrating a capacity of the human brain that I think we're at the edges at in consciousness studies. >> [snorts] >> You know, there's a fringe group of scientists who are saying that we're we're not just meat computers. We're actually capable of being attenuators and tapping into the if you like the cosmic internet, the cosmic consciousness. >> Absolutely. I I just think that those ideas also are not uh mutually exclusive. You can be a meat computer that taps to the universal consciousness. >> [laughter] >> It's a horrible thought though, isn't it? Because I I hope you're right. >> Yeah. Like everybody else, I hope we live forever, right? But the truth is that I think that all of these ideas of higher self and the the thing beyond this I think the reality of it I I do think that something else is happening. Like this is not the end, so to speak. But I do also think that whatever that is, it doesn't continue as what you experience yourself to be. I always say the higher [snorts] self is not itself. You see what I'm saying? And I think people still need to grapple with that. Like this is it. This is this we should enjoy this. I do think I do think >> life is a privilege. It's a pleasure. But Danny Gole, you're taking us somewhere else in it you're the cutting edge of I think something quite exciting. >> Thank you. I I think I I definitely think so and hopefully we'll be blowing some minds within a year. >> You think within a year you'll have some results? >> I think we'll have something that we'll start talking to mainstream science. >> And are there mainstream scientists who are starting to take an interest in your work? >> Yes. >> What about government, the dark forces of government? Are they interested? >> The light forces of government, I met some pretty amazing people that work for the government. I don't know if they're the government, but they're They I definitely met some people who have influence that saw what I'm talking about and they were blown away. And they said that they're if I ever need anything but >> Because I can tell you the CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency, they're deep into consciousness studies. >> That I know. That I know. >> Even though they deny having a remote viewing program, even though they deny a lot of psychical studies ever since the Stargate experiments that were done. >> you ever played with that? Uh in remote viewing things like that? >> I have. I have. >> Did you succeed? >> [sighs] >> I didn't think I had, and then this lady that I was doing it with told me I probably had. I I think it's early days for me. One of my problems is I do so much traveling that when I try and meditate or put myself into a peaceful state, I immediately fall asleep. So I'm still working on on that state. But but a lot of people quite ordinary normal people that I've met have told me that remote viewing can be done by everyone. >> That's what I hear. I've never managed to do it, but you know this I I I read this uh you know there's this short biography by uh the famous physicist Richard Feynman. Uh Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman. And uh in it I was surprised to learn it it's his own words, apparently he managed to do it. He just explained it away to to something else. He used to go to isolation tanks. This is again by told by him. And he managed to train his attention to move to different parts of the body, and then he managed to just leave the body and go somewhere else. He called it a trick of the mind. But without a doubt, he was basically remote viewing. >> There's a bit of a problem in orthodox science that when you're confronted with something that is so anomalous and confronting to your understanding of reality, there's a tendency to say it can't be, therefore it isn't. >> You know, to his credit, because how open-minded he really was, and that was one of the biggest strengths in in in his brilliance, he didn't quite go that far. He didn't kind of explain it away, but he did think that it's more likely some kind of a trick of the brain. But he was very open to a lot of these proposition. He said the only reason he didn't do LSD was because he was afraid he might lose some of his ability to be a really good physicist, but but I'm saying it to the effect that even people who are very people who that are very smart but open-minded very often can do things that most of mainstream science doesn't want to accept, but I think eventually it will have to. If if I may, I have this dream. The dream is that what a mature science of humanity is, capital S science, is just the enterprise of understanding. >> What do you mean by that? >> Well, currently science is only considered the things that we can measure with other devices. >> Sure. >> But that's not science. Science is just humans trying to understand the world, period. Modality shouldn't be limited to just the thing that we currently know how to do. >> [snorts] >> Well, wouldn't it be a tragedy if because of the the tools that we're using at the moment scientifically to understand our world, we're limiting our ability to understand things. >> Exactly. >> And you're using a new tool that is taking you into what is potentially another realm. >> Yeah. Currently, the only measuring devices, if you want to call it that, is other people's observations. So, eventually we might be able to understand what, you know, how to actually do it through external devices, but until that day comes, we should still rely on the ability of honest reporters about what they see. And I think that's not less science than anything else. Meditation, for example, I consider the science of the inner world in that you observe something closely, your inner attention. You find ways to repeat whatever it is that you discover that is possible. You can communicate it to other people and they can repeat that themselves. And we can measure that there's now very uh broad studies of people's brains on meditation and we know it's different. >> It's interesting because I know that for some of the people who are very accomplished remote viewers, some of what they describe bears an eerie resemblance to what you're describing. >> Code? >> Yeah. >> Really? I didn't know that. >> Yeah, it's interesting. I might be able to introduce you to somebody that I know. >> Yeah. >> I'm just wondering whether it's possible that people can achieve with their brains just by remote viewing. Of course, these things don't exist according to conventional science. But is it possible that people might be able to tap in using their own brains without the enhancement of DMT? >> Absolutely. In fact, my me and my partner, David Carter, with Code of Reality, uh we're in dialogue with a lot of people who are reporting these kind of things. I've never heard actually code, but uh there's more and more reports of people who are seeing machinery, menus, uh and some of these people they always ask to stay anonymous cuz they're lawyers, they're doctors. They say, "I'm going to lose my license, but I'm telling you I see these things." So, it's way more common than people think. >> Wow. Well, Danny Colla, you've made us think. Thank you so much for sharing it with us. >> Thank you so much, Ross. I appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for watching. Subscribe below and download our NewsNation app right now on your phone and you will get fact-based, unbiased news for all Americans.