How to Make Yourself Unbreakable | DJ Shipley

I had a lot of emotional stuff happen to me in that second deployment. You know, my my idol, Mattie Roberts, I've talked about him a couple times. I really really hung on to that dude. Like he was my true north. Like he was the guy. And when he got shot up, when you see it happen, you know, I think that was the uh the closest call for fire mission the entire Iraq war like inside a 15 m. I mean, Cy Mike from AC130 gunship. I mean, it was on top of you. A bellfed machine gun just chewing us up. Everybody shot up except for me and one other guy. And we're all crowded behind this tractor tire. Just you felt like a victim. Like I felt helpless, you know? I'm getting rounds poured all over me and at a certain point you just go, I'd rather run back into the front of this thing and get killed with all of them than be the lone survivor. >> Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and opthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is DJ Shipley. DJ Shipley is a retired Navy Seal who served for 17 years, much of that time as a tier 1 operator, meaning part of an elite, highly selective special operation unit within the SEALs. In recent years, DJ has emerged as a top public educator on the topics of how to structure your days to maximize your mindset for sake of physical and mental health, as well as performance in work or school, and to best support and build your closest relationships. As you'll soon learn from DJ, there are key points in your day when you can take specific physical steps, including but not limited to physical exercise to shift your mind away from rumination, distraction, and frustration to a state of immense clarity, focus, and drive. Through trial and error, DJ has figured out and he shares with us how that process is done and how you can do it, too, right down to the details. What he describes goes way beyond a standard morning routine or evening routine and most importantly is accessible to all of us. You also won't hear any cliches or fluff in today's discussion. DJ is very specific about what to do and when and how in order to become the best possible version of yourself. You'll often hear those words out there, how to become the best version of yourself or reach your potential. But what DJ does so beautifully is he explains exactly how to do that. and he shares his story of how he joined and moved through the SEAL teams and the victories, but of course also the immense challenges and losses that he and his teammates experienced. We also discuss addiction, PTSD, and depression and new paths for overcoming those. In particular, a new medical treatment, IBA gain, followed by DMT, and how that's being used to help veterans overcome addiction, PTSD, and suicidality. I've paid close attention to that work over the last 5 years because the brain imaging aspect is being done by my colleague Dr. Nolan Williams at Stanford. I should mention that the ibeain DMT process we discuss is not a recreational one. Rather, it's being done as part of clinical trials and dedicated research studies. DJ explains that process firsthand. And at the same time, I should mention that Ibigane and DMT are still illegal in the United States. They are not FDA approved. So, no one should explore their use outside of these clinical trials. However, the FDA is looking seriously at these compounds, and approval for them seems quite likely in the next 12 months or so. Today's discussion is one that anybody, male, female, young, or old, can benefit from. DJ has immense knowledge. He has immense experience, and he has an incredible ability to take what he's learned and turn it into actionable steps so you can improve your mental health, physical health, and performance and become the best possible version of yourself. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with DJ Shipley. DJ Shipley, welcome. >> Thank you so much for having me, man. >> Let's talk about mental health, physical health, and spiritual health, but not all at once. You talk a lot about and you post a lot about mental health, but I've noticed that a lot of that takes on a a sort of a protocoly approach where you use physical steps to approach mental health and vice versa. >> So what's your framework on this thing that we call mental health? I'm not asking you to solve the mental health crisis in one swoop, but when you think about your own mental health, the people close to you, people you've worked with and the teams, you know, how do you approach mental health as a concept and as an actionable thing? I've lived so many different stages of my life, high points and low points and everything in between. And at my lowest point, I had no physical connection. I was either down hard with an injury coming back from surgery and then my mental health rapid declined right after that. And for someone who never suffered from mental health issues, it's shocking and you feel like you're the only person going through it. Especially when you come from a subculture of special operations, nobody ever talks about it. So when you find yourself in that dark room alone, really contemplating some terrible things, it's hard to wrap your head around because you're the only person that's ever gone through it. and you know had some really good strength coaches and coming back from injuries and the better I got physically my mental health naturally just started to pull out of it and but everything we did was for the group so all my physical attributes everything I'm training is for the betterment of the group now it's betterment of my family of my tribe of whatever I have but you know I talk about this thing stacking up micro wins my morning routine is structured in a way to where I can do that same routine everywhere I everywhere. At any point of day, I can lock that thing in. But it all starts with an evening routine. So, when my phone goes off at 5:00 a.m. and I spring feet out of bed, I know exactly what I'm going to do for the next 12 minutes to put myself in position to not be stressed. So, I've got to power down my home life, and I've just got to think about what's coming next. So, laying out the clothes night before, my bottle of water is filled, my pills are out, my toothbrush is out, everything is set. So, as soon as I get up, by the time I get to making my morning cup of coffee, I've done 25 things inside of my control. >> Do you know off the top of your head what those things are right now that maybe you could just list them off? You said your alarm clock goes off 5:00 a.m. >> And that's regardless of when you went to sleep. >> Regardless of when I went to sleep, typically. I mean, if I'm out here, I'm on a different time zone and I can change it, but >> if you get to bed at midnight or you get to bed at 9:00 p.m. or you get to bed at 2 a.m., alarm goes off at 5:00 a.m., you're up. >> You know, my wife gave me this the other day. I came home on a red eye. I didn't walk through the door until 2:30 in the morning. And alarm clock goes off at 5:00 and she rolls over and she's like, "What are you doing? I'm going to work." And she's like, "You can take a day off." I'm like, "No, I'm not taking a day off. This last 5 days is the first time in as long as I can 20 years that I've actually taken 5 days of not working out when I had the physical ability to do it. I've never taken 5 days off because I'm so afraid my mental health will drop. >> Something will happen if I leave that routine." So, I wake up, unplug my phone, shut off the alarm, I walk in, toothpaste on, toothbrush. I go to the bathroom while I'm brushing my teeth, spit it out, all the pills I got to take in the morning, you know, vitamin D, all the stuff I take. And then I get dressed. Left sock, right, right shoe. Everything I do, I do in a very specific order. Even the way I put on my bracelets, if I put them on in the wrong order, I'll stop and I'll dejock them all and I'll redawn them just because that's one simple thing. I'm not rushed. I'm not under duress. I'm in control this entire timeline. And that way when I get to the kitchen, I don't feel like I'm frantic. Where are my keys? Where's my wallet? Where's my bag? Everything's in a system right now to where I can step in that car. I'm not stuck behind a school bus. My car has gas in it. My phone's at 100%. Cuz we've all been there. Everybody's a normal person. I wake up, my wife wants to have a 15-minute conversation that puts me behind that school bus and I'm typically not behind. Now I'm late for my first meeting. I've got to rush through my workout. I don't have time to take a shower. All that is going to cascade. and it's going to put me to be the person I don't want to be when I have to walk into that first meeting. It's like I'm trying to optimize everything that's within my control. So when I step through the threshold, this is a DJ that I'm purposely presenting to you right now under my control. And that really sets the entire framework for the whole day of being in a good headsp space. I'm controlling the things that are controllable. And the things that I can't control, I don't think about them anymore. I block them out. >> I love the regimen um and your adherence to it. I'm curious about your mindset when the alarm goes off. >> Meaning, >> where is your head? I guess I know you're human and I understand enough about the brain to make an assumption, which is that you don't wake up every morning with the alarm going off at 5 thinking, great, I'm going to get up and just roll right into the day. That there may be times when you consider, you know, going into fetal position. you know, it's warm under those covers, >> but also that your mind, like anyone else's, probably starts spinning. It leaps to the past, leaps to even a little more stress than you'd like, a little a little little more uh lethargy, this kind of thing. Do you purposfully stack up to-dos so that you stay out of all of that? And if some of that persists as you're brushing your teeth, what's what's the way of dealing with that? >> I just keep pushing. I just keep myself in motion the entire time. And I talk about dials, not switches a lot with people, and it sounds selfish, but I have to be selfish right now in order to be selfless later. So, I tell guys, you know, as soon as that alarm clock goes off, I'm not thinking about my wife. I'm not thinking about my kids. I'm thinking about being as efficient as humanly possible. And I'm trying to hit that gym so I unrackck at 07 the best version of me. And I can't do it if I'm thinking about a fight or an argument we had with the wife the night before, the kids, and this and that. I have to be selfish right now because this is the only block I'm going to have for me to optimize myself because at 10 a.m. I'm going to get pulled from 50 different directions. It's the exact same thing when I go home. So now between the hours of 10 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. I'm only thinking about work. I don't think about my wife. Don't think about my kids. I only think about the team and everything we're trying to do. At 6, you can watch and I tell everybody if you would put a hidden camera in my car and break the internet. I do it every day. I slam that car in the park. I put my phone on do not disturb. I check social. I check all my textes. I'm good. There's no phone calls. And I've got a 12-minute drive from door to door. Those 12 minutes, I put on Chris Stapleton. Something that makes me feel good. It calms me down. And I pre-rehearse everything that's going to happen the moment I hit that garage door opener. >> Really, >> I do it every single day. >> I realize it's personal, but to the extent that you're willing, maybe share a couple of the what what you're rehearsing. >> I pull into the driveway. I slam it back in park. I check my phone one more time and I tell myself, "You're only going to have 3 hours from 6:00 to 9:00 to be the person they need you to be. You got to be a full-time dad right now. You can be a full-time husband." And I don't get it right every time. Some days I drag that stuff home with me two hand texting frantically, but I really try not to. And before I hit that garage door, I tell myself like they don't know what's going on. They don't know the stress you're out at work. She's had her own day. They've had their own day. I mean, I've got a I've got a daughter in seventh grade. I've got another one uh second grade. like, you know, we got to work through this whole thing together. And it's like, what version of me do I want to present to them right now? I'm going to walk in, bags over my right shoulder. I'm going to clear the threshold, make an immediate 90° turn, and there's going to be that seven-year-old. And she's a huge ball of energy. She gets all shaken. She runs at me at full blast. And I pick her up, shake her, kiss her like 100% love. Take an immediate right in the kitchen. There's my oldest, usually eating something before homework's about to start. Give her a kiss, give her a hug, ask her how her day was. straight to the room to see my wife cuz she's got a she gets like a 30-minute buffer before she has to go upstairs and lock in with seventh grade homework. Check her. What do you need? If you can fold the towels, if you can start dinner, done. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So, my last interaction in the morning was positive. I left on a positive note. The first interaction you're getting at the end of the day is in a positive note. And regardless of how I'm feeling, if I have to fake it, I'll fake it. >> I got three hours. And if you space over the course of the five days, I don't have a lot of time to make positive memories just because of work and stress and everything else. I'm trying to maximize those three hours. And then when I do, it feels like you can do no wrong. But every night after we finish dinner, me and my wife do a 20-minute walk. 10 minutes for her. So as soon as we start it, tell me about your day. Everything she wants to vent through, everything we got to get caught up on. We hit the halfway mark right around this park. And then it's my turn for 10 minutes. Average human can walk a mile in 20 minutes. Helps circadian rhythm. Helps digestion. I mean, mental clarity. I'm not on my phone. There's no stimulus. I mean, I'm watching the sunset. It's But now it's 20 minutes just for us to reconnect. And we do it every single day. Unless it's a torrential downpour. >> We're doing it every single night. And our marriage has never been better. My physical health has never been better. And then my time with my kids. I can be accountable for every single minute in my day. Did I maximize that opportunity? No. Why? because I drug that dude home with me from, you know, 2:30 in the afternoon. I drug him all the way home till 6. That's not who they need. They don't need a commando. They don't need a business owner. They don't need an entrepreneur. They need a dude that's going to have a tea party right now or a guy that's going to talk about how difficult navigating 7th grade is. Like, she really needs a husband that's going to be fully present because I haven't been for the majority of our marriage. I've been gone, you know, 300 days out of the year. She really just needs a buddy who's going to help parent. And if I'm not mentally there, I'm never going to get there. So, I set conditions to where I can be the person I need to be no matter what threshold I'm walking through. And it's been hugely beneficial for me. >> Perhaps one of the most underestimated but powerful tools to improve your mental health, your physical performance, and your cognitive performance is ensuring you get enough hydration every day. The unfortunate reality, however, is that tap water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health. So, while we're trying to get great hydration, that can cause serious problems. In fact, a 2020 study by the Environmental Working Group estimated that more than 200 million Americans are exposed to PAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, through drinking tap water. These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems, some of which are just now coming to light. For all these reasons, I was thrilled when I came across Aurora water filters, and now they're a sponsor of this podcast. Aurora makes what I believe are the best water filters on the market. I've been using the Aurora countertop system for almost a year now. Rurora's filtration technology removes harmful substances, including endocrine disruptors and disinfection byproducts while preserving beneficial minerals like magnesium and calcium. It requires no installation or plumbing, so it's extremely convenient. It's built from medical grade stainless steel, and it fits beautifully on your countertop. It's something that you would want to have in your kitchen. What's additionally impressive to me is Rora's transparency. You can find all of their independent thirdparty test results right on their website and they report reduction data over the full life of the filter. If you'd like to try Rora, you can go to roora.com/huberman and get an exclusive discount. Again, that's r o r a.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. I personally have been doing therapy for well over 35 years. I find it to be an extremely important component to overall health. In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, including cardiovascular exercise and resistance training, which of course I also do every week. There are essentially three things that great therapy provides. First of all, great therapy provides good rapport with somebody that you can really trust and discuss any issues with. Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional guidance or directed guidance toward specific actions you want to take in your life. And third, expert therapy can provide you with useful insights. Insights that can allow you to make changes to improve your life, not just at the emotional level, but also your relationship life, your professional life, and on and on. With BetterHel, they make it very easy to find an expert therapist that can help provide these benefits that come through expert therapy. And it's carried out entirely online. So, it's extremely convenient. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman. >> What an awesome example. And and the todos are super impressive. I wonder if we could just explore a little bit of the uh to not do. Uh a lot of what you described, it's clear requires having the phone away. I mean, I could go on and on about phones, but the incoming is incessant, right? You know, and the temptation is really tough to deal with. So when you walk in the door because you're with family, phone is in the car or it's just shut off >> during the day uh when you're going about your work. Is it understood that if your wife wants to get a hold of you, she can, but that it's there's a high threshold for that? Cuz I think a lot of couples get into, you know, like just pinging each other here and there, this and that. Um even in business teams, there's a lot of unnecessary communication. I'm fortunate now that my wife actually works inside the business, so she gets it and she knows that once I lock in, when that camera turns on, that microphone goes on, you got to leave me alone. And I tell people like, I'm not trained to do this. I'm a normal dude, so I'm really susceptible to negative energy. And they know better. Don't slam me with something negative before I have to turn that microphone on cuz I'm not going to be able to compartmentalize it all the way. I need to be the best version of me right now. So, wait till I'm done and then deliver the bad news. And she's the same way. She's she's an absolute gangster. and she knows. She's like, "Hey, when you get done today, we got to talk." I'm like, "What is it?" And she's like, "It's nothing bad. It'll definitely be something bad." But she doesn't even give me an inkling because she knows it'll rob me of bandwidth. She's like, "Go do what you do. As soon as you get done, we'll talk." And on that 20-minute walk, she'll drop it. But now we're here. I'm in a clear head space. I've had a productive day. We've had a great 10 minutes into this. Now, he the bad news. Last 10 minutes, we'll solve it together. >> But not getting on that social media first thing in the morning. I used to be the guy. I'd roll over. I immediately open up Instagram and I'm checking it. What are the comments? How's the posting doing? How's this? How's that? >> You'll stay there for 40 minutes. >> And then if you see something negative, I'll ride that. I'll wear that jacket all day long. I can't get it away from me. >> So, I don't take a Zoom call. I don't take a phone call. There's nothing that happens inside of my orbit before 10:00 a.m. From 7 to 10, that's my morning block. I've got the whole team in there. We do fitness from 7:00 to 9:00. I make them all do a 20-minute walk. I make the whole team protein shakes. I take a shower. And at 10 a.m., I walk out. Hit me with it. What do we got to do? We're going to range and my training and we shooting content. What are we doing right now? You have full bandwidth until I leave here. And if I run till midnight, we run till midnight. But you have both barrels with me at 100% because I've controlled that entire morning routine. And it's been the best thing that's ever happened to us. But you got to be consistent. It's like everything else. What's the best diet? The one you'll stick to. >> And that morning routine has been the biggest game changer I've had. >> That's awesome. Uh I feel like um the teams and I've been fortunate to know and work with some folks in from the teams uh seem to have what I call kind of an unconscious genius like the uh as a whole as a system. We could talk about buds, we could talk about selection for tier one stuff. We could talk about any of that and we and we will. But seems to me that a lot of the practices that are built up in the teams and in team guys who are successful when they transition out uh are built around this notion I just call unconscious genius where they weren't thinking about like what's the underlying neural circuitry or this and that. And everything you describe by the way is extremely actionable for anybody. I love that you told us and I'm I'm going to underscore this highlight it and bold it right now is that doesn't matter if you went to bed at 2:30 a.m. or you went to bed at midnight. you're you're getting up at the same time is actually critical for keeping sleep rhythms healthy. And one thing from the literature I'll just share is that it's clear that um if people have the same wake up time each day that whatever sleep they get prior to that wake up time, you get the maximum amount of growth hormone release that's possible, which is of course crucial for recovery, not just growing muscles, but recovery, etc. So, um so there's that. you guys came to that there's that kind of you didn't need to know the science you just arrived at it but also the brain is so context dependent and and throughout your description I'm keep hearing that you know if there's you'll wear that jacket all day long like it can pull you in I mean you're a strong-minded individual you know how to control your own behavior clearly but you you are susceptible like anybody else and I always think of mental states as that you know we can either be like a ball bearing on a flat surface where that ball bearing can go anywhere with even just the slightest tilt or even a breeze um versus you know little dimples in that surface where it can kind of reside but it could get blown out or pushed out easily. And ultimately what we're all seeking is to drop like a ball bearing into a trench and rage bait and numbing out which are the two kind of core features of social media except there's this other opportunity to learn. I feel like uh those are drop us immediately into that trench. And so I feel like our brain wants to be the ball bearing at the bottom of that trench, but it's tempting to not do the work to get there. And so there are things in the world, highly processed, highly palatable foods, um you know, certain aspects of social media, cuz I don't think all of it is unhealthy that provide that opportunity to drop into that trench. So clearly um the unconscious genius here uh is that you arrived at it seems an understanding that you're very context dependent. You know it's not that you're so robust internally that you can throw anything your way. It's exactly because you're, if I may, you're not that robust internally that you understand the brain that you can't let anything come your way. But if you set the context internally, then the rest of your day is maybe not a breeze, but it's workable and you'll stay that ball bearing in the trench that you're determining. Do I have that right? >> Exactly. >> Okay. So I think this is important because I think a lot of people hear about um special operators and high performers and they're structuring their routine and they assume they wake up and they're like end of the day nothing's going to bother me. It's because things bo have the potential to bother you that you have to structure it that way. >> Y >> okay uh for me that's very helpful to hear. Um and you I think you're also defining the difference between uh an artist I know a lot of artists who need it they kind of float about their day. They're two hours late to things and then the the stuff emerges, right? I mean, I can tell you stories about people in Los Angeles and how meeting times and I'm a little guilty of this, but it's incredible the way that things just kind of orbit around certain people and then they're but then they bring the magic and so the world continues to orbit around them >> um versus an operator. And I feel like everything you described is like the essence of being an operator. You're approaching your civilian life the same way presumably you did your operating life. So, um, let's say you have a morning where something goes wrong. There's no toothpaste in the toothbrush or or something more serious like like your wife really needs to talk about something. Maybe she's so, you know, you know, together that that never happens. >> Will you forgo those minutes or do you make or how do you how do you deal with that? >> The situation really dictates. When I was in, I wouldn't I'd wake up before everybody else is in there. And it's a lot of stuff I tell to the new guys in special operations. Like, if you sacrifice your sleep when it doesn't affect anyone else, you can really lay the foundation for greatness, right? Your first four years, don't rush to make her your girlfriend. Don't make her your wife. Don't have a kid. Don't get a dog. Just focus on being a Green Bray. Focus on being a Navy Seal. And just do that. Then when that girlfriend turns in a fiance, you can have the bandwidth to do them both. It's very hard to do that job. You know, build that build that boat to the high seas and now you're dragging your wife into it. It's hard to do. But, you know, situation dictates if it's something I really have to solve, we really have to solve it. But, she knows no matter what, I'm unrackcking at 07. I'm not missing us for you. I'm not missing for somebody else because she knows what's going to happen. So, she'll either grab me at lunch. Hey, do you have a block here? We can talk for sure. We'll maybe start the initial conversation. And if it starts going south or I think it's going to take long, I'll look down on my watch like, "Honey, I got to go. I got 12 minutes to be there." She's like, "Okay, we'll catch up at lunch." Cool. And we'll go. I can't miss morning movement. I can't do it. That will ruin my day. >> Mhm. >> And if I'm rushed through morning movement, if somebody comes in, somebody beats on the door and they're like, "Hey, we were in the neighborhood. Just wanted to come see you. Can we talk for 20 minutes?" No, you can't. No. I'm sorry. And I I know it sounds bad. You can't because I know what happens if I miss this day and I'm not willing to take the chance on you right now. You can wait an hour. Wait till I'm done. But it's hard, you know, and now we've kind of restructured the whole day to where I can get my time in in the morning and I can leave with just enough time to see my kids wake up now. They're pouring cereal. So now I get that little dopamine hit of seeing them and I kick off their morning in a positive way. Right? I'm doing red light therapy in the morning. I'm still going to unrackck at 07. I'm still getting up at 5:00, but now I'm just in the house getting everything processed. I'm going to leave on my terms and that way they get to see me first thing in the morning. I only get 3 hours at night. Well, if I get 30 minutes in the morning stacked over the course of a year, that's a huge difference. >> We've restructured the entire day, but the whole team is also on that exact same schedule, right? It's not just me. It's not just my world and business partners Cole and everybody else. Everybody who does that morning block of fitness, that's why I've been pushing it this whole time. And if you look at anybody in the military, anybody in fire department, anybody in special operations, the military in general, everybody's day always starts with fitness. When you're in boot camp, you wake up, you do a workout, and then you eat. When you go to Buds, you wake up, you work out essentially all day long, go to sleep. It's the same thing. When you get to the SEAL team, you do the same thing. Everybody wakes up, everybody does fitness the very first thing, and then we start our day. That's been really successful. Why would I ever break that? You see guys when they transition out, they get away from it. They gain a bunch of weight. They start drinking. You working out 5 days a week? No. Why? You've been doing it since you were 17 years old. Why would you break it now? Why? >> Yeah. Why do you think that that happens? >> I think guys use excuses, injuries, limitations, lack of motivation. Like, oh, there's no reason for me to be in shape. Longevity of life. Everybody says, I take a bullet with my kids. You won't lose 40 lbs for them. you won't prolong life. If you think you're a real asset to your family, why wouldn't you try to maximize that time? So, I look at him alley. It doesn't take a whole lot. Like, you don't have to be David Gogggins. You don't have to run 100 miles a day. You can wake up and do a 20-minute walk every single day, and you'll be better off for it. You could grab a set of kettle bells, 30 minutes in your garage. That is something every single day that makes you exponentially better just through the repetition of being there, being present, being a little selfish right now so you can be selfish later. So for me, if I don't get that workout in, and everybody's got stuff going on. I do, too. If I don't get that block of fitness in, I will think about that all day long. I'll think about it for weeks. >> Mhm. >> We go back the next time we hit that muscle group. I don't get the same numbers I thought I would. Well, that's cuz I took Monday off. I'm never going to put myself in that position. I don't want to have to have an excuse. So, I just I set the foundation. I lay it down. I stamped it on a piece of paper. That's what I'm doing. I'm not compromising on it. And it's been it's been great for us. >> That's awesome. I mean, as somebody who got into resistance training in his teens and and running, I I I confess over the years, I felt some guilt around working out because in my community of scientists, I mean, now I have a much broader community. You know, you go to meetings, everyone's sitting all day and eating bad food. And then, you know, then it was happy hour. I I was never much of a drinker, but I would participate a bit until eventually I just stopped. um drinking entirely. And occasionally I would sneak off during some of the I'll just be honest that the the weak talks. I was like I' I've seen this person speak before. I'm going to get a workout in. And only once did I ever run into a colleague in the gym at one of these places. And we both were like it was like getting caught doing something bad. But then the years went by and I saw my colleague start to die. I saw my colleague start to get sick. Uh I saw my colleague start to resemble melted candles. And these were people that had a lot of robustness and they also had a lot to offer and families and friends. And so um I think nowadays people think about physical fitness a little bit differently. They understand it's an investment and therefore it's beneficial to the people around you. But I still see a lot of people um kind of couch it especially with respect to anything that relates to muscle as kind of selfish and narcissistic and this kind of thing. And um I think it's so important that people understand the mental health benefits but also the benefits that it can bring the people in your life and not just longevity but just the person that it brings. You really understand yourself. You know in the back of my mind I'm thinking about you know the oracle know thyself. It's like so important. If you don't get that workout you you're going to have to force out being best husband, best dad, best teammate. And if you do get that workout, they still get that best dad, everything, but it's it's that much more genuine and and it and it comes it probably is in abundance. One of the things that nobody ever talks about is your body awareness. When you do fitness for a long time, 50 years old, you've been doing fitness for a very long time. You are so in tune with that vessel that when something does pop up, you identify right away. when you don't you're like um my back kind of hurts where uh you don't know. I'm in tune with that thing so well that when I walk into a doctor I'm like take a needle 3 in down, rotate it over 45 degrees and that's where it is. I'm like, "Okay, this is it." I'm so in tune with it. So when anything pops up, I can diagnose it. I can walk in and give them actual feedback what's happening. I'm not just sitting on the couch all day long just my neck kind of hurts. No, I know exactly what it is. I'm doing a full diagnostic approach the entire day. And that's why I've got Vernon. I mean, he's the best strength coach in the world. And if I wouldn't have that guy, I would be >> I mean, he's brought me back from the dead multiple times than I can count. >> But it's five days a week. I mean, he's in there every day. So, if I walk in and I've got a slight limp on my left side, he's like, "Hey, my man, come over. What is that?" And I was like, "I have nothing." Bruce heal. Yeah. How'd you know it's a bruise he was like, "I watched that broad jump on Friday. Like, you landed a little funky. I wanted to see if he's gonna mess with you." He ided it. I ided it. I just wasn't going to say anything. Okay, what are you going to do about it, right? Be proactive instead of reactive. But that's because you're chipping away and you know, you're understanding yourself so well because you are constantly in tune with your body and people just forget about it. Like, why aren't you sleeping? Or I had caffeine at 4:00. Oh, I'm accountable for everything I put in my body and then everything comes out of me. The gym is just one of the methods that really ties them all together for me. >> The body awareness piece, I think, is something that uh we should also underscore a bit. Uh, I think one thing that happens if people don't develop body awareness is that they don't learn the difference between something that hurts and an injury. A few years ago, right before going on Cam Haynes's podcast where, you know, you carry that rock. I was about to say he makes you carry the rock. You don't have to. You know, you carry the rock up. The thing's heavy. 72 lbs. Slippery. It's muddy. It's,000 ft of elevation. And people do it, right? You can do it. But, um, I popped a hamstring on the hamstring curl machine like a couple days before. But I didn't pop pop it. Like it didn't ravel, you know, unravel up the up the tendon. So I was like, I'm just not going to talk about it. I'm not going to say anything. I'm not going to because that's going to create its own thing. I was like, I'm hurt. It hurt, but I'm not injured. And knowing that line is really important because if you are injured, it'd be the stupidest thing in the world to carry that rock up that hill, right? You end up out for six months potentially or four months. I had years ago a back pain kind of sciatica thing and I couldn't stand up and I actually was online. It was Instagram and I have no business affiliation to this kid but there was a I think he's a chiropractor. He has this channel called Rehab Fix >> and he convinced me that what I need to do was some like up dog things. It looks like you're kind of like humping the floor, you know, your pelvis is down and you're pushing up and repeat those. It's kind of like like lizard push-ups, you know. Um, and then against the wall if you can't actually do that from the floor. Within three days, it resolved itself. >> And I was thinking about pain meds, which I don't like to take. In fact, I avoid them entirely. I was saying, am I going to have to have surgery? I could not stand up. I couldn't move. I couldn't do it. And and I realized then I was like, okay, the line between hurt and truly injured is often kind of blurry. And you need to be able to work through that space. And you think about this and it through one lens, and it sounds like a selfish thing. Oh, it's all about being able to work out more. you think out about it through another lens, it's, you know, people who think they're injured or or who are in pain and don't resolve that are very difficult to be around. Very difficult. I've been that person. It's just everything grates on you. >> And male, female, young or old, people now, you know, they talk about their neck or they sleep, right? And I think being able to suck stuff up is really great. It's also important to know when you have a real issue. And so the body awareness thing, I think, is a is a gift to oneself. You can avoid a lot of costs, a lot of unnecessary medical interventions. You can know when it's time to take action with proper medical intervention, but also it really allows you to be in life with people without being the person that's always complaining about stuff or is just difficult. I think a lot of people who are difficult are in pain and they don't know how to resolve that pain. Y >> and they think they have a problem with pain. So then they take pain medication and that's a whole cycle. So, I just, you know, want to underscore that, um, kind of where we're headed here, uh, it seems again and again is with, you know, what seems selfish is actually one of the most selfless things you can do. >> Let's talk about what you call unrackcking at 07 tier one operator, former tier one operator, the lingo. So, that I'm I'm guessing is that unrackcking the weight? That's when the workout starts. Phone is off. >> Phone's on because we run an app on it. So, we have Vernon Griffin, >> but you're not looking at text messages. You're not shooting selfies of your calves and biceps, right? I point that out in semigjest because I always joke that that the first rep of every set now seems to be uh guys in the gym taking pictures of themselves. The last rep of every set seems to be guys taking pictures of themselves. Um so 07. So what's that workout look like? You're doing it 5 days a week. Um I know it's going to be different for different people, but you have this program that I really want to explore with you today about how to measure progress and set standards and meet new standards, higher standards. Uh, what does that workout look like for you? >> So, I linked up with Vernon right when I was getting medically retired around 2019. I came back from a gnarly shoulder injury. I blew it. I had a dislocation. It came through my armpit. Shredded out everything. And I went from about 215 to about 180 lbs. Got stuck in a rehab clinic in uh in Bethesda, Maryland for 31 days inatient. And I came out like death warmed over. Worst I've ever been in my life. Worst my mental health has ever been. I did not want to play the game anymore. And the Navy Seal Foundation hooked you up with this uh physical rehabilitation program in Virginia Beach ran by a former SEAL and Vernon was the lead strength and conditioning coach. And he was my coach. And we walked in, we did full body assessments. And what's interesting about him is he took all your limitations and develop concepts and movements to establish confidence in that area. So when I came back, you know, day one, he's like, "Okay, let's try to hang from the bar." I looked right at him. No. He's like, "What? No, I'm not hanging from that bar. I'm done." Like, I've done I've done more pull-ups than most people on the planet. My pull-up days are done, man. Like, I'm not doing it again. He goes, "You got to trust me." It's not going to happen on day one. Slowly but surely. I mean, I mean, he's at the point where he's holding my knees. I can't even extend my arm overhead. Like, I'm >> That's humbling >> for a guy that for a guy went was a tier one operator. That's humbling. I was so bound up by fear that it was going to come because that was my first shoulder surgery and if you've never had one, shoulder surgeries are the worst rehab I've ever had and I've had a lot of them. The shoulder rehab was brutal and I didn't want it to pop and I'd extend and I couldn't do it and I couldn't do it. And he's like, "You just got to trust me, man. Like doctor cleared you. The anchors have set. Everything is there, but you cannot go through the rest of your life like this." He's like, "You're not even 40." He's like, "Do you want to go another 40 years without doing a pull-up? You're going to have to trust me." He'd pick me up by the legs. I'd put my arm on there and he'd slowly but surely start to extend me down until we got full range of motion. And we did that for days and weeks. Then we went to a band. Then we took the band off. I just want you to hang. Now we're going to focus on going back up. And we built back to I mean I can do sets of 25 pull-ups now. >> You're you're pulling your weight, which is what right now you're >> 215. >> You're 61 215. >> Yep. >> And you pull you're doing sets of 20. >> Yeah. 20 25 >> non-kip pull-up. >> Yep. and it's all bouncing back from him. But the whole program we did, you know, because I'm I'm not a unicorn by any means, but I've had all the injuries that everybody else has had. I've had double hip surgery. I've had double shoulder surgery. I've had my abdomen blown through a couple times. I mean, I've had them all. I've had thumbs I've had to rebuild and >> blown through. >> I mean, just everything. When I got electrocuted, it blew out everything. And we had to rebuild that entire thing. So all the guys that are in this process, if you're a SWAT team, a fireman on a SEAL team, anybody in between, we've all got injuries that become limitations and we just avoid them. You can't avoid them forever. And this program is designed to get you back in shape and it grows with you as you go. So every single week you're chasing numbers from the week before and pushing. On the days you don't have it, on the days you wake up and you're bound up just lacking motivation, we're going with 100% of what we have to offer. That might be 75%. I'm giving a 100% of the 75 I have today. But Monday's u a pull day from the floor. Usually trap bar deadlifts. And we do those because of all the injuries. I've got a really long torso. It puts my back at a a weird precarious situation. So we do trap bar deadlifts. We do those. A lot of pull-up work, a lot of grip work, a lot of core stability stuff. Tuesday's a press day, heavy upper body, bench, incline, that kind of stuff. Wednesdays an upper body, lower body disassociation. So, we get the upper body moving in one direction, the lower body moving the other. Um, a lot of cords, >> example of that. >> Um, we'll do a lot of banded work. We'll drop down to a knee like almost in a shooting position and we'll do cross body pulls with bands, resistance training, but just, you know, >> rotational stuff and sort of anti-rotation stuff. >> Y on that day, we'll do pio stuff, >> box jumps, height, distance and broad jump, that kind of stuff, >> farmers carry walks, all the stuff. Just trying to connect all the dots. Thursday is the most brutal leg day you've ever had. And it's amazing. We got a belt squat machine. So, anybody who walks in, regardless of the injuries, limitations you have, we have equipment to accommodate that. >> And when you say brutal leg day, um >> it's just I have a belt squat. I love that thing. I love throwing a lot of weight on that thing. Um it's nice. It doesn't load the spine up, but um yeah, it's a uh I I like to think it's brutal. Can you describe are you talking about like an hour and a half, two hours of of >> usually from seven to nine >> low weight um >> high weight pretty high repetitions you know >> so high weight high repetitions >> trying to always trying to push but a lot of single leg movements Bulgarian split squats I mean a lot of lunges a lot of lunges with heavy weight I mean 70 lbs in each hand for me that's a lot of weight >> so not calf raises leg curls >> no but on days some days we'll do a feelood day like some days we'll come in he'll take a pulse of the whole room and he'll We're all going to hit the same muscle groups. We're just going to do it in a more traditional. So, we're going to do hamstring curls, leg extensions. We're going to do belt squats. We're going to do pulsing lunges. Really just pump the blood flow and just chase a really good pump. Everybody loves doing that. And Friday is a really It's a feel-good day. It's an arm day. We'll do some shoulders, some accessory work, you know, and then we add in sprints in between. Probably two to three days a week. >> Mhm. >> You know, 200 meter repeats, 300 meter repeats. >> Done where in the workout? In between sets >> at the end. >> At the end. >> Yeah. We always save it at the end. We always did that with the military, too. It always ends with a run. And I've tried every combination doing sprints, you know, pre and post, and it really just zaps a workout for me. >> Yeah. Pavo Satsulan, you know, the Pavo Satsulan sat in that chair right where you're at now and said, you know, if if your goal is hypertrophy and you're going to come into a pumping workout, doesn't really matter if you do cardio first or last. But if you're going to if you're serious about strength and performance and form, do your cardio after, if at all. you know, because a lot of times those kettle bell workouts or some of these leg workouts, they're not quote unquote cardio, but they definitely get heart rate up in a serious way. >> So on Wednesdays, if we're doing a sprint workout, it might be 10 by 40, 50 m sprints, right? Nothing crazy. We'll do that at the very beginning. Get the fast switch muscle fibers going and then we'll do whatever the normal Wednesday workout is. Then we go to the flat range every Wednesday. >> So we train, we bring him out, too. So all the stance, the grip, the presentation, everything we talk about in the tactical setting, he's there with us. So when I talk about flexing your right glute to add stability to a stable shooting platform, he's there driving home. This is why it's important. Think big toe down, drive your heel down. So I mean, he's as much of a coach as I am on the flat range. And but he can connect the dots so well. And that's why I love him. >> He's not going to let you take that limitation and then live it forever. >> You don't want to be like that. >> And it doesn't help that he's bigger, stronger, faster than everybody else. So you've always got a a good lifting buddy to kind of chase. He always pushes you. >> But he's so good at navigating the human terrain. Because some days I'll walk in and whatever's happened over the the week, he'll see me in the morning. He'll look at me like, "How we holding up?" I'm like, "100%." Yeah, you ain't come over here. What's going on? I'll talk to him. He's like, "We'll shake it all out. We've got two hours here. Just us. Nothing else matters. Let's just focus on this." And I find myself pacing a lot. So, in between sets, I'll block out everything else. I'm not thinking about social, not thinking about my wife, not thinking about the business. I'm thinking about putting myself in the best mental spot to pull bat off the floor at 100% with no distractions. And I think that's why I like it so much because it allows me to isolate my thoughts. Nothing else matter. You don't matter. This doesn't matter. Just that movement. Let me get through that the best of my ability. Set it down. Recog around. Get ready for the next one. Here we go. Eight reps. I'm going to put so much intent behind this pull that if I get eight or 12, it doesn't matter. Every single one is all out. And you know, Dorian Yates talks about it. Intensity is what really drives and I really try to drive intent behind everything I do now. And >> yeah, he's a huge uh man, I can't I can't tell you how many times he's brought me back. >> I mean, the worst injuries you can imagine. And he's there every single time. And I think that's why so many people get on with it. They see the injuries you've gone through and it's like, well, you can still perform at a high level. only because I'm I don't want to say I'm even ego driven. I've been so ingrained into sitting with the routine it doesn't matter what injuries I've had. I mean I come out and we've got pictures of me in there double slings. Like when I got electrocuted double swings I can't even I can't even tie my shoes. He's tying my shoes. Like he's putting the belt squat on me. I'm squatting down. He's clipping it in. He's unrackcking it the entire thing. Like he's my guy. >> Uh tell us his first and last name. >> Vernon Griffith. And you met him when you were injured, right? And and he's a former operator as well. >> He's not. So his business partner was a former operator. He was actually in the Air Force and transitioned out, got a strength conditioning, um all his squalls, and he's got such an interesting look to mobility impact and the the highle athletes that come through him. And that's really what it is. He gets big guys tricked into doing mobility and liking it cuz nobody wants to do mobility. It's not a sexy thing to do. I mean, we get first round draft picks that are pouring through that gym all week long. And you see them because it's the truth. Like, we're trying to keep you at a super high level as long as humanly possible. The average guy plays in the NFL, what, three years? >> Mhm. >> But I'm trying to keep you in there for 12. How are we going to do it? You have to maintain that vessel at a super high level cuz all these young kids are trying to knock you off the team. And then the reality of the sport is trying to knock you off the team as well. So, we got to keep you really, really mobile and healthy. And I've never seen anybody that can connect dots better than that guy. He's an absolute lifesaver. >> We've known for a long time that there are things that we can do to improve our sleep. And that includes things that we can take. Things like magnesium thrienate, theanine, chamomile extract, and glycine along with lesserk known things like saffron and valyan root. These are all clinically supported ingredients that can help you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling more refreshed. I'm excited to share that our longtime sponsor AG1 just created a new product called AGZ, a nightly drink designed to help you get better sleep and have you wake up feeling super refreshed. Over the past few years, I've worked with the team at AG1 to help create this new AGZ formula. It has the best sleep supporting compounds in exactly the right ratios in one easy to drink mix. This removes all the complexity of trying to forge the vast landscape of supplements focused on sleep and figuring out the right dosages and which ones to take for you. AGZ is, to my knowledge, the most comprehensive sleep supplement on the market. I take it 30 to 60 minutes before sleep. It's delicious, by the way, and it dramatically increases both the quality and the depth of my sleep. I know that both from my subjective experience of my sleep and because I track my sleep. I'm excited for everyone to try this new AGZ formulation and to enjoy the benefits of better sleep. AGZ is available in chocolate, chocolate mint, and mixed berry flavors. And as I mentioned before, they're all extremely delicious. My favorite of the three has to be, I think, chocolate mint, but I really like them all. If you'd like to try AGZ, go to drinkagz.com/huberman to get a special offer. Again, that's drinkagz.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by 8LE. 8LE makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. One of the best ways to ensure a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct. And that's because in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about 1 to 3°. And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about 1 to 3°. Eight automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs. Eight has just launched their latest model, the Pod 5, and the Pod 5 has several new important features. One of these new features is called Autopilot. Autopilot is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns to adjust the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages. It also elevates your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep. The bass on the Pod 5 also has an integrated speaker that syncs to the EightLe app and can play audio to support relaxation and recovery. The audio catalog includes several NSDR, non-sleep deep rest scripts that I worked on with Eight Sleep to record. If you're not familiar, NSDR involves listening to an audio script that walks you through a deep body relaxation combined with some very simple breathing exercises. It's an extremely powerful tool that anyone can benefit from the first time and every time. If you'd like to try eight, go to eight.com/huberman to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5. Eight ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE. Again, that's eight.com/huberman to save up to $350. The way you describe him and your interactions with him, uh, it almost takes on a sort of, uh, mythical like quality. I mean, like we could be talking about a movie, but but this is real and and we'll talk about just how real it is. Some very real things have happened to you by virtue of the uh, high-risisk, high consequence career that you undertook. Uh but you know when you hear about this person who's able to bring back a high performer and then get him to exceed his previous notions of what he could do and under conditions of duress and hopelessness it's you know this is real life though this is not this isn't Star Wars this is real life and um so uh without ever having met him you know I can feel the uh the respect and and the admiration and the gratitude you have for him and I'm I'm sure everyone else can too. Uh, he said, "This is the stuff of mythology. Um, but it's real. So, um, here's what I know about you. You live in Virginia Beach. >> Uh, at one point you were interested in skateboarding and parttook in skateboarding. At some point, you decided to become a Navy Seal. At some point, you got electrocuted. >> Fill in the blanks for us." >> Yeah, man. I was born in uh, San Diego, California. My dad was a SEAL. My mom was in the Navy. So, when my dad graduated, my mom was nine months pregnant with me. So his whole first four years at, you know, the West Coast Seal teams, I was one of the only kids there. So kind of grew up in the culture, you know, really ingrained into it. My first >> Coronado. >> Yep. >> It's my first bottle. I'm wearing a Seal team one onesie. I mean, >> you literally were raised on Coronado. >> Yeah. So I did that. We moved to the East Coast. He got transitioned over to the East Coast. I grew up the rest of my time there. Fell in love with skateboarding. That's all I wanted to do. I wanted to go pro. got into a fight with the old man around 15 years old, something like that. And he signed me up for summer school um to graduate early. So I graduated at 17, hit the late entry program, joining Navy a month later. >> Was that a contentious interaction? I mean, I mean, skateboarding uh was clearly not the right career for you. I mean, I'm sure you would have done exceedingly well there, but having grown up a bit in that culture and uh also knowing a bit about the culture, you you eventually um decided on um you know, it's hard to say which one is uh you know, the better career choice. One is definitely uh more life-threatening, which is the uh in many ways, um but you just said, "Okay, like you're a Navy Seal. You want me to be a Navy Seal, so I'm going to I'm going to hang it up." >> It was always in the back of your mind like that was always what you thought you were going to do. But at 15 years old, in your mind, you can do them both. You're like, "Oh, I can be a professional skateboarder and then I can be a Navy Seal later." You don't realize what it actually takes to do it, even though you grow up in the culture. >> So, when that happened, you know, the towers that just fell, I was 17 years old, delayed entry program, straight out the Coronado, >> got through SEAL training, came back to the East Coast where I've been essentially my whole life. And yeah, joined the Navy in 2002 and got medically retired in 2019, right around 17 years. I think it was 16 years and like 10 months, something like that. >> Can I ask you about Buds? A lot of people have heard of Buds and they understand that it has a hell week with minimal if any sleep, you know, maybe an hour or two tops, but probably not even that. Um, >> how hard was Buds relative to other things that you did in the teams? You know, I've heard people say it was the hardest thing they ever did. I've heard some people say um it was extremely hard but not nearly as difficult as like some aspect of um like guys who hate the jungle and humidity or like that was worse and you never know if people are are joking around. I mean did did you learn a lot in Buds about yourself? >> If you can make it through Buds you can do anything. It it is such a brutal program and I just I had week just secured and I saw a bunch of the guys took them out the vendor the other night and I was explaining to a group of civilians that were out there with them like their parents like you guys all see it. Every single person does that pipeline. It's not just buds. It's you know the Q course for Green Berets. It's RIP for the Rangers. Marox selection. Every single kid that's doing that selection program is the biggest deal in his hometown. the biggest thing in his high school. Everybody knows he's going and the amount of external pressure it's riding on that kid. Unless you've done it, you have no idea. You just don't. It's like playing D1 college ball. Everyone in your family is expecting you to be a pro. They're expecting you to be in the NFL. And if you don't get drafted, it's like, >> oh my god, it's so much pressure on you. It's the same way. >> And it's self- selection because people quit. They're not in general, they're not asked to leave. Although that can happen. Um, so if you if somebody doesn't make it through BUDS, it means they quit. >> Yep. Pretty much. And it's a lot of pressure, right? The GWAP just kicking off. All the instructors were coming back from Afghanistan and they were larger than life. I mean, you really look up to them. And I was just very fortunate that I grew up in the culture and I knew a lot of the guys going in, so I knew what the end state was. Most of these kids are from Buxy, Mississippi. You've never even seen a Navy Seal in real life until you showed up here. I grew up with one. All my family friends were SEALs. We didn't have a single civilian friend growing up. The only thing I've been around were commandos. So, >> I felt really natural around that environment, but I knew it was going to suck. I just knew it was. >> Did your dad have you run with him and doing push-ups and things like that at home, or was it mow the lawn and then go skateboarding? You know, >> mow the lawn, go skateboarding, then as we transition, we got closer, it was turn it on, download the Steu Smith Guide to Navy Seal Prep and did that like everybody else did. Mhm. >> It's a phenomenal program for anybody who's trying to go. But I was I was so young. I was so immature. Didn't have a cell phone. Didn't have a car. I lived on the barracks. And the only thing you had to do was get through the program. But what I will say is the 17-year-old me that showed up in 2002, if I would try to be a Navy Seal in 2025, they wouldn't even take me. My performance scores, like, you have to pass a screen test, push-ups, pull-ups, run, swim, the whole thing. Your scores now have to be so competitive they wouldn't even take in me. >> Oh, so the the standards have changed. The >> standards are the same, but the people going through the program are so better prepared they wouldn't even take you. So if you're not if you're not 120 push-ups, 120, they don't even look at you. Like for me, I basically barely scratched through. I was I was a strong swimmer, but technique wasn't my thing. And until you take the test, you don't realize how hard it is. And I got through it. I went out to Buds and I was successful. But I was by no means a star athlete. And you've got guys, you know, Coleman Ruiz, Naval Academy. They are freaks. They're phenoms. They are professional athletes. And there you are, 6'1, 145 lbs, pot smoking skateboarder. We are not on the same level. But mentally, you couldn't mess with me. I didn't care. >> Like, we're getting surf tortured. And you'd watch these guys who were just these studs get up and quit like it's not going to stop. And I felt like I always had the inside scoop. Like if you think this is going to end, it's not. Like my dad did a lot of diving. I was like, I've seen the conditions he dive in, breaking through the ice. Like it is only going to get worse, dude. If this phases you, this is not the program for you. And I was right. If if that phases you, the SEAL team is going to chew you alive. So, not everybody should make it through that program. I was just fortunate enough that just good enough to get by. And, you know, maturity came later. Buds was definitely not the hardest thing I've ever had to do. At the time it was. And when you get through it and you see all the you start with 200 and something people, you graduate less than 20. It's those are 200 of the most physically capable people of that year in the United States Navy and they couldn't make it. >> Did any of the people that not made it through as well as made it through surprise you um for not making it through or making it through? >> Not making it through for sure. I mean all the guys that they You've been around >> Captain America's >> Navy Seals have a certain look. They have a certain mystique, a certain or and they do in training, too. It's not like you just develop that. You've had it your whole life. And there were definitely guys you look at that look like Dolph Lung from Rocky. You look at him, you're like, "Oh, that dude is definitely going to make it. He's gone in 20 minutes." You're like, "How? He passed everything. He didn't like that cold water." Like, okay. And then you see another guy who he was in worse shape than me. barely squeak by everything and he is the hardest dude you ever met in your life. Nothing phases him. Every run, every swim, just miserable. He doesn't care. Like he >> he's just kind of It sounds like you have to not mind being miserable. >> You have to get used to it. You have to embrace it. It's going to suck. It's supposed to. And you just got to tell yourself it's worth the price of admission. It's going to be miserable. You bought the ticket. You're going to get the whole show and it's totally worth it, but you got to be there at the end. You mentioned Coleman Ruiz who's been a guest on this podcast as a good friend of mine and and yours as well and you worked with him and um I'm probably going to get this a little bit wrong but I think once he said uh because I think he was an instructor at Buds also for a short while. I think he was >> um and I think he said you know when you look at the guys that make it through BUDS >> nine times out of 10 they've had one at least one of the following three things. either spent some serious time in detention in high school, played a varsity sport in high school, divorced parents, and you know, that raises a whole bunch of other questions about, you know, friction and and um kind of, for lack of a better way to put it, like some internal sense of like f you, I'm going to push through this anyway, or just f F you to something. So when when you're going so let's assume that Coleman having given the fact that he's not a scientist he's he's a former operator so he knows um do you think that there were there were moments or many moments where it was um you against them like you and your teammates cuz you're you're you know you're on boat crew or whatever with with your teammates. You're working as a team and learning how to do that. It's not just about you. It's about the group. Um and it's about you and it's about the expectation. But how many different bins of motivation do you do you have to access to get through buds? Is it and is fu uh to the instructors or whoever to the cold water is that part is that a critical bin? >> It is and it isn't because sometimes you get caught up in the moment. You don't even think about it. You just want to finish that evolution. >> So when you're doing a four mile timed run, that was one of the big things is you have to do a four mile timed run. It's got to be I think a seven minute mile or less. And nowhere in does it say the condition of the beach matters. So if it's high tide, low tide, you have to run it on the burm and soft sand. The time standard is a time standard >> and talk to anybody. At any point in that training, you are going to hit a wall where you think your heart's going to stop. Like if I take one more step, I'll die right here >> cuz your heart rate's so high >> and you're like, I can't do it. And at some point, you just don't care. You're like, I'd rather fall stone cold dead in front of all them and die right here than I would failing or quitting. >> Yeah. At least you don't have to go home head hanging in shame. >> Exactly. You just push anyway. >> Sometimes you'll get it, you'll be getting surf tortured by the instructors and you're just laying down that 60° water just miserable. And I tell the story quite a bit. We had dudes getting up and leaving mass accidents just in the biggest, strongest dudes. It's broad daylight, 70° on Coronado Island, the most beautiful day you've ever seen. We're laying there just jackhammering and you look over and all the West Coast SEAL teams are out to your right and you can see SEAL team one out there doing log PT for like their morning PT and you can look at down to the left and you can see the hotel Dell and this little what I call a seven-year-old with a big pink flamingo jumping in the water having the best time of their life and I'm like it's all about your perspective be a palace or a prison >> however you want to see it right now that >> they're still doing it that kid time of their life and we're in the exact same water. Mhm. >> Just change your mindset. This is all part of the process. And if you want to wear that shiny gold thing on your chest, you must do this. Just do it. And I remember that was one of the things like you're not going to break me. No matter what you say, I'll die right here in this water. I don't care. And that kind of that mindset has really been beneficial throughout the entire process because there's parts of there's parts of Buds and parts of being in special operations where you think it's going to kill you >> and then a certain point you just don't care. If it kills me, it kills me. I don't care. And you get through it. Like, you know, I'm so terrified of heights. Like, I can't jump out of the back of this airplane. You watch 15 guys going in front of you and you get right to the ram. You go, I don't care. And you just, for whatever reason, they just jump. >> Like, what made you jump? Everybody else did it. I didn't want to be the guy who said no. Sometimes that that performance anxiety, that pressure to perform on demand, it it gets you through the hump and it shows you >> there is nothing if it can be done by a human being, I can do it. >> Mhm. And it just it rings true. It's like, how far can you run? As far as I have to. Well, how fast can you run? As fast as I can. Like, if you can run that, I can run it. If you can get up and over that mountain, I can do it, too. How you going to do it? One step at a time, brother. Here we go. And it it makes you so mentally resilient. And I think that's the that's really the defining factor is you can make them believe in their mind they can get through anything. Now, collectively as a group, now you stack 25 of those true believers together, you can do anything. And I've seen some dudes do some herculean feeds and they do it just because they're too afraid to say no. Can you do that? Yep. You sure? If it can be done, I'll do it. I've seen it time and time again. Yeah. I mean, everybody hits those moments in buds where it's just I cannot believe I'm doing this right now. But it's magic once you get through it. >> It's awesome. I mean, I I think uh setting a threshold for uh if it kills me, it kills me is uh in many contexts is unhealthy. But in that context is yeah healthy adaptive. Let's call it adaptive. I I'm not going to decide what's healthy or unhealthy. I'm sure some people are listening to this and they think like this is how this is how guys get themselves killed and and indeed outside of the context of buds. That's yeah sometimes guys do dumb stuff. I always say um there's something about having a Y chromosome that through you know I wasn't around tens of thousands of years ago but I'm guessing the first homo sapien male who picked up a rock the first thing he did hit himself in the head with it was like ouch then he hit the guy next to him with it and go ouch and then they decide to take it and throw it against a wall and see what happens and on and on and here we are >> you know and obviously you know those with two X chromosomes took a different path and we need that we need the collaboration in order to survive as a species obviously ly, but there's something about that. Let's just see what happens if and if it kills me, it kills me. That actually is a core feature of human evolution that's brought us to some incredible positive places. So, clearly Buds is is a one such micro environment. >> Um, so you make it through and then I realize there are a lot of other iterations. There's Jump School and there's a bunch of other things and um you go off and you you start opting right away. >> Yeah. Yeah, I get stationed at SEAL Team 10 in uh Virginia Beach, Virginia, and we deploy in 2005. The Iraq war just kicked off, so we I check in and I was early ' 04 and we deployed um yeah, we deployed probably 7 months later, sent Iraq was phenomenal. Everything you ever wanted to be scary, like you don't know anything. The IED is really bad and just being a really young kid. I mean, I was stormtrooping out of Iraq and 19 years old. I mean, you forget how young you are at 19. >> So, you're 19, you're kicking doors down. >> Yeah. >> I'm driving in Humvees, blowing stuff up. >> Yeah. >> And seeing friends get blown up. >> If you talk to anybody who was in Iraq, the chances of you not hitting an ID were so rare. And we never hit one. They'd hit the convoy in front of us, the one behind us. We'd get delayed at the gate for 2 minutes. We'd turn and boom, they'd go off in front of you. They're just not hitting. They're hitting everybody else but you. And you know, you would tell yourself things like, "Oh, the reason they're not doing it is because we look so aggressive because we have flames and death skulls on the Humvees." >> It's not that, man. It's just it's not your time. You be the best trained dude in the world. That ID hits you, >> the lights are over. >> And on that deployment, we lost all the guys in Operation Red Wings in Afghanistan. That was the other half of our SEAL team. >> That wasn't ID. That was the helicopter. >> The uh >> the um now I don't know whether I'd call it famous or infamous. Forgive me. I'm going to step in it one way or the other. Uh Lone Survivor. >> Amazing book, I should say. I really I really enjoyed the book that the movie does a I think a pretty good job of extracting some of the the key moments from the book, but um more than a movie or book. It's a >> true story. Um and that's the the four guys that got um three of them got killed on the ground and then one helicopter blown up attempting to come save them. >> Yep. >> Uh to save the the one guy. >> Yeah. Marcus. And that was so hard to wrap your head around as a 19-year-old. So you got to think, you know, in my mind, I'd essentially been in the community for 19 years up at that point. >> And during my dad's time, it was peace time the whole time. So you weren't going to funerals all day long. like Navy Seals getting killed was it was like folklore. It's like oh it's a bad training a bad parachute accident. You know we had Neil Roberts got killed in the early GWAT in Afghanistan. Roberts Ridge you ever heard of that story? That's a gnarly one. Breast Lebinsky got the Medal of Honor. John Chapman the Air Force guy got the Medal of Honor. Gnarly firefight. But outside of that it wasn't happening very often. And then when all those guys got killed in one shot, it was like a slap of reality. They were the best dudes you ever seen. Like they were the highest like unbelievably trained, unbelievably experienced and they're gone in an instant. No goodbye, no fanfare, no, you know, holding him like tell my mother. It's nothing like Hollywood. They're gone. >> And that was kept under wraps for a long time before the book and the movie. I mean, people really didn't know. There wasn't a lot of discussion about SEALs. And uh >> no, like it wasn't in popular culture. And when the book came out, it started to gain steam and people started to, you know, >> read more about it. But for being inside the SEAL teams, that was your own private 9/11. Every single SEAL cried in an instant, throwing up. I mean, just you cannot believe that just happened. And then for everybody else who's still fighting the war, you have to try to explain to your wife and your family why that's not going to happen to you. And it's a lie. It's not like they did anything wrong. That's just the way it is. Sometimes it just happens. >> You were married at this point. >> I wasn't single. Thank God. >> Intentionally. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I try to wait as long as humanly possible and try to do that. Good advice, but you know, it's hard. It's hard to try to It's hard to do that job at full-time and trying to be a full-time boyfriend that turns into a fiance that turns into a husband, turns into a father. It's very hard unless you're able to compartmentalize really, really well. And fortunately for us, that's the thing you're the best at is I can wall it off so fast and never think about you again. Now, when you transition out of the military, that's not really a superpower anymore, but in a moment it served you. >> So, as more and more guys are getting killed, um, did you find that getting into action each day, the same way that you described civilian life now, um, and getting into action each day, being really adaptive, did you find that that was key to being able to not go down mental traps? Um, and at the same time, I I acknowledge that you must have also just been really busy. There's stuff coming at you all the time. Like just because I mean it sounds cold, but just because guys get killed doesn't mean that the the oping stop stops. In fact, it probably picks up even more. >> You go out the next you have to you got to keep going. You got to get back on the horse. Keep them going. The last thing that we wanted is those guys get killed. Well, let's pull them all back. Let's take, you know, 6 months to, you know, regroup. No, no, no, no, no. We got to go out right now. Same thing with the parachute accident. I told you about the the electric. I got to do it right away. If I don't get back on the horse, I'll just build up this this dread and I'll lose my confidence in the whole process. Like, we have to go. And NSW did. Everybody did. Full gas, full steam ahead. Let's go. And just kept going. We did another one in 2007. If you've seen the stuff with uh Jason Redmond, I talked about my buddy Matt shot up. That 2007 deployment was dicey. But it's the same thing. Like >> two of your close friends. >> Yeah. And you know, >> pretty pretty mangled, >> crazy mangled. And you know, you start to find out really, really fast. It doesn't matter how much you train, if your numbers called, you're getting pulled. And it's hard to justify because now you have a girlfriend, you have all this stuff, and people are dying, and you have to reassure them why it's not going to happen to you. And you get really good at compartmentalization. Like, I can't control that. The only thing I can control is this. I'm shooting as much as I can. And I'm doing as much CQB as I can. I'm jumping as much as I can. I'm around the boys building team camaraderie as much as humanly possible because I can't control anything else. Control the things you can control. Building confidence. But reality, when it slaps, it slaps hard and definitely slapped us. >> As the public understanding of like what the seals even were and are started to grow and change and the movies, the Lone Survivor movie. And I actually think it they again I think they did a good job with the movie. I know the book and the movie were approved by the military. So there was a lot of um kind of vetting of the of the material but I think I think it um hit powerfully. At the time I was living in San Diego so you know the movie theaters were packed but that was true everywhere. I mean it made a big impact. Um, but then with like the the Bin Laden thing, you know, being, you know, the televising, the the White House watching and, you know, I feel like the whole world came to understand that there were these guys called Navy Seals and they're doing this really dangerous uh stuff and um taking out bad guys. Um, was there anything that changed about the job just knowing that it wasn't as uh as vaulted as it once was? I mean, what you're doing is vaulted on a day-to-day basis, but you know, just this idea like this is in movies and they there it is and covers CNN. There's Obama and you know, Secretary of Defense watching the OP, you know, and and people then there's a movie made about it very quickly and uh it was I mean it was all happening in it was weird in real time and on the movies and it just for a civilian it was a little bit of a of a mind bend. And I can't even imagine what it was like if that's your job. And so much of being able to perform the job well relies on people not knowing what you're doing and how you do it. What was that like? Terrible. Terrible. I mean, the very next day you couldn't drive on the compound. Every news channel across America was sitting outside of that thing. And not only they taking photos, everybody comes in, they know what you look like. They're looking for guys with long hair, beards covered in tattoos, driving jack, you know, jacked up pickup trucks. That's what they're looking for. And now you can't go anywhere. Now they're going out in town to all the bars and restaurants you go to and they're pulling you aside asking you. It's like it's very uncomfortable. They'll see wives in there with a little trident stick on the back of their car. They'll nail her in the Whole Foods parking lot. Your husband and Navy Seal. It's nobody's ever done this before. It's like mum's the word. Everybody kind of just collapsed on ourselves and really really tried to hush this thing down. But it made the job very very difficult. It felt like you were just under microscope the entire time. And then when extortion happened, then everybody started that it was an inside job. You know, they Come on, man. >> I know it's probably not something you want to get into, but maybe just explain for people what extortion 17 was and um why that was so additionally impactful uh after what happened with Operation Red Wings. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, we had Operation Red Wings that happened June 28, 2005. You had a bunch of really historic things that led up after that. You had the rescue of Captain Phillips in 2009. That was a huge milestone win. Like everybody's goal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And they made a movie. >> They made a movie and it's great. And like but nobody in the teams is on social media. They're not on I didn't watch a YouTube video my entire time in the SEAL teams. Like what do I watch a YouTube video for? Like nobody knew how bad it was spinning outside of your control. And nobody. Bin Laden happens. Um, and then August 6th, 2011, we lose an entire troop of guys in Afghanistan. Hilo gets shot down, kills them all in an instant. Killed 31 total people. And it was like we were reliving June 28th again. But now it's double as bad. And now you truly have the best that I've ever suited up. If you look at the experience level they have, most of those guys were pre 911 guys. 10, 12 combat rotations gone. You'll never replace it. Never. You've never filled that void since that moment. And then you have all these people just hateful rhetoric like, "Oh, it was an inside job." And you know, they they knew too much. They knew they were on the Bin Laden raid, so we killed them. It's Do you know how hard that is to live in Virginia Beach doing that job, seeing those wives at Whole Foods wearing a Memorial T-shirt, knowing you're saying that? Do you know what that does to a family? You know what that does to little kids who wake up and they read the comment section. Mom, was dad killed? Yeah. Was he killed by the government? That's what they read because that's what you're saying and it's not the truth. It's just not. That was an op that went wrong. It's a dangerous job. And when you fly in those big gigantic black helicopters and they're slow to land, you can shoot them. And that's what happened. And this it's as simple as that. It's a dangerous job. Like what are you going to do? But it is very hard to live in Virginia Beach that is so small. Everywhere you go, it's around you. I mean, you're sipping through black t-shirts all day long. which memorial shirt are you going to wear? It just is. And now you get there now people are starting to erode that from you and it really starts to lose your confidence. So for me now I'm married, I'm in the organization. We had to fill we had to fill a lot of those guys from other squadrons and one of my best friends had to go over and unfortunately he got killed in uh December 8th, 2012 on a hostage rescue. Ed buyers got the Medal of Honor for that operation. My buddy got the Navy Cross and you know we went to BUDS together. His name was Nick Czech. One of the greatest, most pure operators you have ever met. Came from Pennsylvania, big wrestler, always in a gym, always training. He he represented what the essence of being a Navy Seal was and everyone knew it. When he died, a piece of me died that I've never gotten back. I'm trying not to cry. The hardest thing I've ever had to do was look at my wife and tell her that it wasn't going to happen to me after he died because he was the true north. So when she looks at me and she goes, "Well, the reason you're away from us, the reason you spend 300 days on the road is because you're perfecting his craft because you say it buys down the risk." What about that? And you can't justify it. And you just look at it, you're like, "I just hope it's not my time. I'm just going to try to exhaust all my resources right now to put myself in the best position surrounded by the best people to buy down as much risk as humanly possible. If my numbers called, it's called. What do you want me to do? And that's where the compartmentalization really took hold. You have to be able to leave Virginia Beach, your wife, your two kids, and completely block them out. Like, I can't run through that door with bullets coming out of it thinking about my wife and kids and how I'm going to orphan them. You can't. I don't have pictures in my room. I'm not trying to FaceTime all the time. I'm trying to separate myself out so I can just do this job. And it makes you it makes you really distant. It makes you not be the person you want to be or the person you used to be because you can't. >> Well, you being the person you need to be in order to eventually be able to go back and become the person you want to be is what it sounds like to me. >> And you know, I I say to the guys now, and it'll sound messed up, so forgive me, but I never chased a guy who had a perfect family. There was never a Navy Seal I ever wanted to emulate who had the picture perfect family ever. They were all either on their second marriage, bad relationship with their kids because they were so devout at work and you looked at him like that's a master class. Like it's like watching Tiger Woods drag around his golf bag. Like that's the best it's ever been ever. And he has no 50/50. There is no dial for that man. He is living this at 100% in the moment he retires. I really hope he takes all that energy, all that focus, and becomes a better husband and father, but you can't do it both ways. My mind has come to change now, >> but I've never seen it. And I most certainly had no balance. I wasn't even trying to find balance. I was trying to wall them off as much as humanly possible to focus on the task at hand because any distraction was dangerous and it's hard to do, but it was necessary at the time. >> Yeah. I don't know any high performers especially ultra high performers and especially especially ultra high performers in high-risisk high consequence careers uh that don't have some unresolved dark aspect of themselves or their life or something that I mean you mentioned Tiger you know it's public knowledge he had issues outside of his golf game and >> it sounds like he's resolved those I think he got married again recently and you know I think everyone should wish him the best and them the best you know it's like >> you know especially in the United States We hold people up um and we expect perfection from our so-called heroes historically as well as ones that are alive and um perfection doesn't exist right because so much of what's required from high performance is um total focus total compartmentalization and that being a human being is a lot more uh complicated than that um it's something I think to keep in mind I also just want to uh just briefly double click on this this thing about comments. You know, I'm not going to tell people to stop saying mean stuff about me if they want to or mean stuff about somebody. They're going to do it anyway. Um it's not the the issue. But when it comes to kids reading about their dead parents, their dead dads in this case, um and last week we had a, you know, public assassination. there's a dead dad and people making up theories and um coming up with ideas that they somehow know things that other people don't know. Um and sometimes these people have a professional background in politics or in the military or in uh law enforcement and it adds additional weight to these these theories. But the the repercussions on the on the kids and family and and the legacy is it's uh it's really bad. It's really bad. It's a shame there isn't a thicker filter. I'm all for free speech. Um 100% for free speech, but um there's a lot of damage done with those those thumb clicks that I don't think people can really comprehend. So I'm glad you you you pointed that out. >> I mean Yeah. I mean, just imagine it like you're a 14-year-old kid and you've grown up worshiping your father and he gets killed in Afghanistan and you see a post about him. You start to read down like he was killed by his government by this and this and like >> mom mom it raises doubt >> and then that little seed of doubt is going to be with him forever. It's like it takes the entire collective to like listen to me. They they've never even met a Navy Seal dude. That's some kid in the middle of nowhere who's typing his mother's basement who's just writing some hateful stuff. It's not real. It's hard to block it out when there's 500 of them >> or guys that were in the military that didn't make it through selection. they're pissed or um have some resentment for some guy that was jacked in high school who said something and they didn't get the date or you know >> I mean it's like resent is like a the ego and resent are a bitter combination last you know can last a lifetime >> negative comments many times are irrelevant but in this context uh have a potential lasting very very um corrosive aspect >> I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors function Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PASES or forever chemicals. function not only provides testing of over a 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption. I've been eating a lot of tuna while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with knack and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say by taking a second function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Hubberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function. So, you're opting, guys are dying, you now have a a family, >> and it's in your family lineage to do this job. Um, I'm curious, you know, was the fact that your dad was a team guy, did that feel like pressure or did it feel like buoyancy or neither? >> It felt normal. >> Did you feel like you had to outdo him? And I would ask that of anyone, military or not, there's this notion Well, let me just briefly back up. A friend recently, we were talking about kids and family and building family. And uh and he said, "Uh, you don't want a son. You got daughters. He has all daughters." I go, "No, you know, I think I'd like, you know, want to be her, but who cares? I'd have daughters. I have sons. You know, I don't care." And he said, "No, cuz if you have a son, he's going to he's going to try and be better than you and then you're going to be in conflict." And I was thinking, I almost said, "No." And then I was like, "My dad's a scientist." And so I was like, "There's a point in your life where you go, can I fill those shoes? Can I exceed those shoes?" cuz it's natural human son to father behavior I think. >> And so was there ever a moment where you're like I got to I got to exceed or um or just or was it irrelevant? >> I think it was irrelevant but just because the timing you came in you know spent his entire time at peace time. >> Mhm. >> I did nothing but combat the entire time. a lot of deployments back and back back never took a shore duty station just by that amount of experience you already surpassed it but it doesn't need to be said >> why not leave guys your one of your closest mentors and friends gets killed >> I mean the retirement plan I'm guessing is pretty good but it's not that awesome that's a plug for the military to increase the retirement salaries and you get some medical care right you know some things come to your family for staying in 20 years, I think it is. Um, but did the thought ever cross your mind like, "Hey, guys are dropping off and you're right in the center of it." Um, maybe leave. Not for a moment. >> I I should have known that wasn't going to be the answer. At that time it's so different because a lot of people think about special operations in the global war on terror is the Marines pushing through Fallujah broad daylight just getting smashed. Those are the bravest dudes that serve during the GWAP. Like there's there is nothing more impressive than a 19-year-old Marine and the things they'll do. Like they just are like they're heroes of mine. My experience in a GWAP was very different. It's always at night. It's always, you know, select targets. It's not like they're like, "Hey, you and your team are going to go raid this village." No, we're going for a very, very specific person. And then when you look at it, Hingway said it best. Once you've hunted our men long enough and liked it, you'll never care for anything else thereafter. There is nothing like hunting a human being who's hunting you. Nothing. And you are so afraid you're going to miss it. So that's why you hide injuries. You don't get surgery. you do everything you can to put yourself in position to be on the op to not miss the deployment and I think that's what it is in the essence is you know you have all the intel folks and all the technology that are giving you this one thing and you just stare at them I know everything about you where you live your secondary house everybody you talk to you right-handed left-handed how many windows how many doors the inward opening outward openings there storm doors what's the windows made I know everything about you and then we know exactly when we're going to go get you. We know you're bad. We know everything you've done. I know everything you've said on that phone for the last 6 months. I know everything there is to know about you and we are coming to get you. And when you're successful, it becomes addictive and you just keep chasing that feeling like I am pulling these people off the earth and it makes a difference. I'm not just not carpet bombing anything. Like that one singular dude has done all of this. We have to remove him. Let's go. And it makes you feel like you're important. It makes you feel like people actually need you and you chase it for as long as possible. And my buddy Jimmy Hatch wrote a book called Chasing a Dragon. And that's what it's like. You chase them long enough, you'll find them. And you don't want to jump off that train. You're so afraid in the teams and special oper. The military does a really good job of painting a narrative that if you leave this, your life is over. There's nothing that's going to surpass us. The SEAL teams are the only thing you know how to do and it's the only thing you'll ever feel at home. And it's the truth. You get guys that get out and they go work at Goldman Sachs and they do this and you do that. If you really get a couple beers and you sit down, they're miserable. They miss it. Even all the stuff you didn't like, the things you hated about the military and the people you hated working for at the end of the you don't remember any of that. You only remember the good times. And because you had, you know, the entire time at war, the whole aspect, the whole career was just amazing. You know, standing on the shoulders of giants. I have got to work with people that are the greatest thing you'll never get to see. Like there's 12 people on the planet that were there that saw that thing and we won't even address it because it's it's not cool if you address it. I cannot believe you just pulled that off. That's the most impressive thing I've ever seen in my life. and you don't even you don't even talk about it. Like the regular people never get to see the level of detail that goes into doing that job. They see it on a flat range shoot or whatever and they're like, "Oh, I can do that." But you can't jump out at 35,000 ft at night into a place you've never seen and been do it. But you can't do that. Like do you know how hard it is to put yourself in a position to do that operation? Like they have no idea. >> And they're shooting back at you. >> Yeah. >> There's that there's that piece. Yeah, the targets don't the the targets on a flat range. Don't shoot back. >> Yeah, right. >> This is two-way range. This isn't airsoft. It's not Call of Duty. Like, there's real people. That dude has five kids and he's going through that threshold regardless of what's coming out of him without a second thought. It's amazing to see. And you know, I said it to a group of guys the other day and you know, when the tower fell, I've never felt more patriotic in my life. In those moments, you never think about the flag. You never think about the American people. You never think about that. You think you do it for the country. You really do it and you stay doing it for the culture. The culture of the SEAL teams was worth every ounce you had to pay for it. And it's every other group will tell you the exact same thing. Like the culture is what keeps you there. You're so afraid to leave it because you know you're never going to find it anywhere else. And I was the same way. I mean, when me and my old lady were going through our worst moments, I told her like, "If you don't like the train, jump. I'm not stopping for you. I'm not." And that's why I was really concerned when we first got together because she was married to Danny Deeds was on Operation Red Wings on the ground. Her dad was a SEAL. I mean, we were we're embedded in this thing. >> You guys have both came up in it. Wow. >> Oh, yeah. Man, like we're embedded in this. And you know, I met her 3 years after Danny passed. I didn't know Danny. I didn't know her. Mutual friends. We connected around 2008 9. And I told him we first I fell in love with her instantly. And it scared me because I was getting ready to screen and try to go with the tier one command. And the the pace was so fast and I was so worried that she'd look at me one day and go, I can't do this again. And I wasn't going to leave it for her. And I told her that don't ever ask me to leave cuz I won't. Like if you don't want to do this, I get it. Like we can be best friends. We can do whatever, but I'm not leaving this for you. And that was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. And for whatever reason, she's a unicorn. She has been the quintessential team wife above and beyond. Every deployment, full steam ahead, hot water heater blows up, tree falls to the minivan, she doesn't even tell me, she just solves it. She's amazing. And I still blocked her out like I did everything else because I still thought that my love for her was a distraction. And like those are the times I look back on and I regret. But in the moment, I don't think I'd change it. I don't think I could. I don't think I could do that job at the level that was required to do it and have that love, you know, hanging around my neck. I couldn't do it. It all ended up working out in the wash, but it was u it's hard, man. It's hard to sit there and just wait for your number to get called and just hope it doesn't. I mean, the best dudes in the world are getting killed. And you can't just It's not lack of training. It's not lack of funding. It's not lack of experience. It's not lack of commitment. What is it? It's a dangerous job, man. That's what it is. It's a super dangerous job and people are trying to kill you all day long. You just hope that you're better than they are. But some days it happens regardless. And it's hard. It's hard putting guys in the ground, especially when you've grown up with them your whole life. You definitely picked the right woman. I I lassued a unicorn. I did. She unbelievable. >> I have a good friend. He uh cuz I know you've got daughters and uh and he said um you want to marry a woman that were you to have daughters >> with her that you'd be very happy if they turned out like her. >> Yeah. >> Which is one of the best pieces of advice that I didn't hear until fairly recently. And the moment I heard it, I was like, "Wow, that's really good." You know, they don't tell us that in high school. >> No, they don't. No, they don't. But but uh clearly you bullseyed on on that one. >> So you're opting, you're alive, guys are dying, you got a family, and it sounds like you love it, too. You're you're loving the work. >> Um which is so key, right? I I don't cuz in moments of stress and you know, I mean, the all the other stuff that's clearly important, love a country, flags, and all that stuff, it it sounds like it's necessary, but it's not sufficient in those moments. the the culture is really the glue. >> Um then you start incurring some damage. >> I mean uh so what do you see in your mind as kind of the first uh high impact event that's not someone else dying? >> Um like that your that your body is starting to take a toll. >> I had a lot of emotional stuff happen to me in that second deployment. you know, my my idol, Mattie Roberts. I've talked about him a couple times. I really really hung on to that dude. Like, he was my true north. Like, he was the guy. And when he got shot up, when you see it happen, you know, his arm shot off, it flipped around his shoulder. It looked like his arm was completely gone. My fingers are inside his arm. We're trying to solve this thing. They're shooting at us from really, really close proximity. And I think it still has the record. I'd have to ask Jay Redmond, but I think that was the uh the closest call for fire mission the entire Iraq war like inside a 15 m. I mean Cory Mike AC130 gunship. I mean it was on top of you a bellfed machine gun just chewing us up. Everybody shot up except for me and one other guy and we're all crowded behind this tractor tire just you felt like a victim and it at one point right when the initial contact happened I sprinted to a tree and got a piece of cover. So there's me, three guys that are all shot up and one other guy who's behind this tractor tire. And I'm screaming at him like, "Hey, I've got an out. Come over here." And he screams out in Blackhawk down like, "Nope, come to me." And you're looking back at it. You can see all the muzzle flash. And just the way it happened, you had blue forces or friendlies that were in behind him. So you couldn't shoot into this veg line because you knew there were friendlies who were back there. >> So you're in this weird dance where I can't do anything. Like I felt helpless. You know, I'm getting rounds poured all over me. And at a certain point, you just go, I'd rather run back into the front of this thing and get killed with all of them than be the lone survivor. I don't want to walk through this. I don't want to live with this survivor's guilt. I'd rather just run back up and let's just catch it and be done with it. And I ran right back into the center of it and dropped down behind that tire and started working all the guys back and, you know, putting on tourniquets and quick clot and, you know, all the stuff. When I came back from that, I was mentally scarred for the rest of my life and I just never ever processed it. I just blocked it off because it was so close. >> I think because it was the first time I felt helpless, like I was just waiting to die, right? Like the guy that I looked up that I wanted to be like, like he was the physical representation of what I thought the essence of being a Navy Seal was. And he's dying in my arms and I can't shoot back. I mean, we're hunkered down in rounds. We're just skipping all over you. And you're just if that JTAC wouldn't have called in a fire mission, we'd all be dead. I mean, it's only a matter of time before he stands up and just realizes he can just walk us down. I mean, there's no aloom. Night vision's all messed up at this point. I mean, everything that could went wrong went wrong. And now we're inside of 10 m getting pounded by a beltfed machine gun. You can't move. And it was the first time in my life I truly felt helpless. And everything worked out. Everybody ended up surviving it. We got him in the helicopter and did all that. I just think I never got an opportunity to ever talk about it. And when I went back home, you know, you're taking a shower. The showers in Iraq aren't the best, as you can imagine. And I'm standing in ankle deep sludge water that's just filled with blood. It's all in my mouth. It's all over my hair. And I remember taking the shower and just seeing it all and not knowing if he lived or not. And thinking, do I want to be washing this off? Because if they call me in 20 minutes and tell me he's dead, this is the last piece of him I have. So I save the camies. I saved the boot. I saved the shirts. I saved everything I wore. I shoved it all in the bag and I kept it in case he died. But it was hard, man. Like the back of that helicopter looked like Blackhawk Down. Just blowout kits and tourniquets and magazines and rounds all over and just the most blood I've ever seen. And you're just slipping and sliding in it just like out of the movies. And it's not it's dudes you've wrapped your arms around and told you I've loved you a hundred times. Like this is not what I thought it was going to be like. I didn't think this was going to be like this. I didn't because I'd never seen it. My dad has never been through that. None of his friends ever went through that. Now I am this 20-year-old kid and this is what I'm living with. And it was hard cuz you got to walk back in in the culture of the SEAL team. So, we're not talking about that. Nobody's ever addressing that. When you see him, you know, you always make a joke like, "Hey, could you scream any louder? Like, I'm surprised we all didn't get killed by how loud you were yelling. You always make a joke about it." >> It wasn't a joke, man. I was traumatized. Like, I worshiped that guy. and to see the reality like he's not Superman and neither am I. Fortunately for me, he did the most heroic thing I've ever seen. And that moment has stuck with me forever. When that initial contact happened, everybody got shot, including him. And he stood back up and ran forward and grabbed our corman who was all shot up and started dragging him back. And I watched it happen. Gets shot again. It spins him, drops him on the floor, and he gets right back up. Picks him up again, gets shot, arm spins over his shoulder, keeps dragging him back, gets shot again, hits the ground, gets back up, keeps dragging him. It's like, at no point was he ever going to leave that dude. Could he have? Yeah, he could have ran a dough behind that tractor tire and sent me out there to go fetch him. He was so committed to the process of I am never going to leave you. If he would have took one right in the head and he would have died right then, he would have never bat an eye about it. If he would have known the outcome, he would have went anyway. And that part has stuck with me the entire time. Like a true believer will go further than anyone else in the moment of total duress because they're conditioned to it. He's already made up in his mind, how far are you willing to go the entire way right now. I'm just looking for an opportunity to prove it. And that was his moment to prove it. He proved it to everybody. And still to this day, I mean, probably still my biggest inspiration in the entire teams is Matt Roberts. Unbelievable human. I try not to get emotional, but yeah. just amazing human. >> I mean, intense in in in every way to hear about. So, I can only imagine what it's like to be there. And um your reverence for people around you that do amazing things is uh super impressive. Uh I I notice you you're constantly noticing the people that you've been blessed to be around that um show you things >> and uh the extent to which you internalize it is is awesome. I I realize it also carries some some weight when they're not doing well. It's so interesting. I I hope people hear what I'm hearing. I'm sure they are, which is that it's never about you. It's always about seeing this other person that you you know was like of almost like a like superhero status like real they're human and and it sort of brings reality back but um all the while you're you're a central figure in this interaction. This wasn't like watching it on an iPad from a distance and wishing you could do something like uh you're in there too and and that's not lost on on us as as as you tell this. So you're carrying this in your head and you're still going back out. So, you didn't process it then. Um, let's talk about you getting electrocuted. >> Um, because you keep opting. Fortunately, you're not killed. Um, and then you're pretty close to the time when you can leave feeling like you've done sufficient time in the teams. You've you've done your work. Was there a desire to stay in past 20 years or were you >> Oh, I I never planned on getting out. Never. I Nope. >> You wanted to be one of these so-called bullfrogs, one of these guys. I know one I won't mention his name cuz he he won't appreciate it, but uh he did something like 32 years or something. And um he's he's a friend and uh actually asked him once what his training regimen he's he's getting up there now. He's going to give me a [ __ ] for saying that, but uh but he's in great shape obviously. and um and he and he he says he finds some way to make sure that he's breathing super hard and his heart rate is max for an hour a day his workout like that's doesn't get any simpler than that. I didn't ask him the variety of things he's done to accomplish that but um I think it's running. I think it's lifting heavy objects. I think it's swimming. I think it's um but yeah, it doesn't get any simpler than that. And um uh in addition to his uh physical durability, his his mental durability um he says directly linked to that an hour a day breathing as hard as he can at max heart rate. >> That's that sort of bullfrog mentality. >> So you want to be one of those guys, but you decided at some point like it might be wise to lean into the the family life. >> No. No. God, no. Nope. I uh >> Okay. So >> Okay. Bad guess, Andrew. >> Yeah. my first major injury. I made it all the way through, you know, came in in 2002. In 2010, I was going through selection for the tier one organization and about 3/4 of the way through, we do a big skydive blog out in Arizona and I love jumping. It's my jam and I had a bad landing downwind landing, hit this ravine, and I snapped my femal neck, broke that thing, and I was so afraid they were going to wash me out of the program, I just didn't say anything. So, I can barely walk. I can't drive a car. I mean, it's full atrophy. It's bad. And I'm I'm jacked up on so many tord dolls, tramodols, and 800 milligram motrin that I'm able to get through and jump. They know something's wrong with me, but they know I'm not going to quit. They know I'm not going to ask for any help. So, as long as I can pass the evolutions, we're good. And all I have to do is jump. We graduate that, you know, we get drafted and all the different organizations you're going to go to. And I walked into rehab and I went, "Okay, now that that's over, my back's broken." And they were like, "Oh, why do you say that?" And they told them like, "We had gotten a we got an MRI on my hip when we were in Arizona and nothing showed up." They were like, "I think you tore your hip flexor." And I was like, "Oh, if I tore my hip flexor, I don't care. We're good." I thought it was my back. We get home, they run new uh new images, and my femoral neck is snapped off. And you know the deal. You lose a thermal neck, blood supply, total hip replacement, you're out of the military. And I walked in, saw the doctor, and he, you know, he's sitting there in front of my command master chief and all the rehab guys. And he goes, "Hey, we got emergency surgery for you tomorrow morning, 07." No. And he's like, "What? I'm not getting surgery. I've never had surgery. I'm not getting surgery. Nope. I got deployment coming up. I'm not doing that." And my command master, you fell looked at me and he goes, "Um, let me rephrase this. You're getting surgery tomorrow at 07. If you don't, I'm going to shake handy out of the program." It's like, "Oh, okay. What is it?" And he's like, "15 in of titanium, three lag bolts. We're going to pump them in there. Here's a rehab protocol. You're still going to deploy in, you know, I think it was a month and a half." And we did. But I got through from the time I broke it, I did another 85 skydives on it. Went through Utah. I mean, up and up and down that crazy elevation just really just sucking it up. But it was a test for mental resiliency. How far are you willing to push to be a part of the organization the entire way? >> Did your team teammates know you had a broken femur? >> Okay. >> We got through, we did the emergency surgery, had a nasty complication, got infected, you know, wound backs, the whole thing. >> And they were so cool. They uh they flew a rehab guy over to Afghanistan with me and that's how we test it out. And you know, the final test, like we're doing V2 maxes and broad jumps and all the things, make sure your hip can take it. And the very last thing was this huge box, probably a 48 inch box. We got a full kit on. And he looks at me, his name's Mike, and he goes, "Okay, we're going to have you drop off this and land on the bad leg." And he goes, "DJ, do not step off that box if you don't think it'll hold." I knew it wouldn't hold. There's no way it's going to hold. Like, it feels so bad inside me. Stepped off it. Hit. I felt like a bolt of lightning went through me. And I looked at him and he went, "How do you feel?" Went 100%. Got my stuff down the helicopter. Made it through all that. The screws ended up backing out, going through my tea band a couple months later. Had to have another surgery. And just it was just a long history of things that happened to me. But it really got you used to, we talked about it before, are you hurt or are you injured? >> I got to the point very, very fast in the SEAL teams. I could not tell the difference. I don't know the difference. Everything hurts. Everything's got a limitation. and I'm just pushing through it regardless. And again, it's not like I'm a unicorn. If the amount of people over there that need major reconstructive surgeries, 8 out of 10. Everybody needs it. And they just don't do it because you have a deployment coming up or you have a trip you can't miss. There's something going on the way you can't miss it. So, you sacrifice yourself. Just don't do it. The same thing was happening. Oh. Had a gnarly shoulder dislocation. Blew it out. Had to have major reconstructive surgery. I had an admin wound, four rounds of plastic surgery, couldn't get it to close. I mean, all the complications are happening. After the shoulder surgery, it was so bad. Medical retirement was imminent. So, hey, we're going to medically retire you. Same benefits if you do 20 years, but you can't do this job anymore. They wanted to fuse my lower back, my neck, shoulder surgery, shoulder surgery, double hip surgery. So, I had three years of surgeries lined up. It's like, I'm not going to sit here in rehab for three years doing surgeries, taking up a slot. I'm not doing it. I was like, I'll just get out. I'll retire and I'll deal with it on my own. That's that's kind of the whole process. So, I I got put on a laundry list of medications. 60s something pills a day. Probably 25 30 different prescriptions we were on. >> Goodness. >> I mean, Symbalta, Aderall, Gabapin, heavy heavy doses. >> Um, >> Zimbalta, they got you on it. Anti-depressants. >> Oh, yeah. And yeah, Symbalta when you come off Symbalta gives you the jolts. Oh yeah, Symbalta is a treat. Um, Lica, um, I've been on everything. Um, Amatriolene to sleep. Take a heavy dose of those. Ambient, obviously, everything. Everything in between. You take it all. And you don't realize that you're smashed all day because you're not you're not hitting alcohol. You don't realize that you're processing pharmaceuticals 24 hours a day, every single day, 52 weeks out of the year. You don't realize it. You're not sober. And that was my hardest thing to kind of walk away with is I came out of this rehab program. They put me on these medications and I felt like a million bucks. I got really hurt in 2013. Amnesia, forgetting where I was at, and I went down, they gave me these pills and I felt like Jesus came down and touched me. You gave me a symbol. Okay. What else you have? Oh, we got this. We got this. We got Give them to me. Stelli ganglion blocks through my throat. Give it to me. Reiki, give it to me. Anything you have, I'll do it. There's not a protocol on the planet I have not done. And I've done them at 100% full value. And they buy you a little bit of relief. We got to the point where I was taking so many different medications. A bunch of them you were not allowed to take together. And I had a new doctor came in. He's trying to refill all my prescriptions. And he's like, "You can't take these four medications in combination." He's like, "It'll give you a stroke DJ. It'll kill you." And I went, "Well, it's 2019. I've been taking them since 2010." Like, I have to keep taking them. He's like, "You're going to have to med wash out. They send me down to uh Walter Reed the 70 East. It's a neurobbehavioral ward." I don't know that. I think it's like a teen guy clinic where we're going to go work on shoulder mobility and whatever else cuz I just came after. >> Sorry, the loud couldn't help it. Well, I mean, you know, I was >> You don't know, right? I don't know. I go down there, they start taking my shoelaces, they take everything I have, and I'm like, >> what is this? I mean, there's fighter pilots that are in there. There's green berets that are in there. >> Like, I went through Sears school. I don't need this. Sad torture training. >> Yeah. And I'm like, >> I don't know why I'm doing this. They don't tell me it's a neurobbehavioral war. They tell me it's for a med wash out. He's like, hey, you're going to go there. He's like, you're going to focus on shoulder rehab cuz that was a gnarly shoulder surgery. He's like, "They're going to focus on that. We'll get you washed out all these meds. We'll come back. You'll be in a good spot. Medical retirement transition next phase." Awesome. I went into that hospital broken. My eyes were jet black. I was 180 lbs. Just death warmed over. I didn't want to do anything. And I laid in that hospital bed and I had these I had the most amazing nursing staff. And I laid down that bed and I started getting sick and I was like [ __ ] food poison throwing up, pissing myself. I mean the whole thing. And I remember throwing up in this bucket and this beautiful black nurse has this wet washcloth and she's washing my face off and I was like I don't know what I ate. I was like I'm so sorry. Like I feel so embarrassed. And she's like it's okay. It's okay. And I was like I haven't eaten anything. I was like I never get food poisoned. She's like oh honey it's it's okay. And I can remember the look she gave me like, "You have no idea why you're here." >> Wow. >> I was like that for probably 10 days. Around the 10th or 11th day, I finally came out of my room. I got sunglasses on. My photo was so bad. If you shine light my eyes, I'd throw up. Like my TBI was it was controlling everything I had. Wasn't sleeping, had insomnia, had everything you could have. And that was the first time in a decade I had been truly sober. No booze, no nicotine, no pharmaceuticals of any kind. And that was my baseline. And if you would have given me the ability, I would have closed out that chapter right then. I was done. I could not believe what I had done to myself, what I had turned myself into. And there's no way to get better. Like, I'm stuck like this. And now you're going to kick me out of the only thing that I've ever loved. Like, what am I supposed to do now? Rock bottom. And we started spinning up art therapy. So, I had um I'd been there before. We' done art therapy before, and I found it really beneficial. Um, actually the um the Red Cross used to bring me in dogs. They'd bring me in a St. Bernard drop in my bedroom and I just I do dog therapy for a little bit. And she's like, "Do you want to do art therapy?" And I was like, "I'd love to." And she's like, "Well, what do you want?" I was like, "I'd really love a skateboard." And they snuck me out of that hospital, not supposed to. And they drove me down this little skate shop right outside of uh Walter Reed. And there's a skate shop there. And I walk in, you know, I've got my gown and stuff on. Like I'm all I'm all jacked up, hair super long, beards long. I look like a hobo. And uh I told the guy my story. I was like, "Hey, I grew up skateboarding. Like it was my passion. And I really would love to have a skateboard just to paint, do art therapy." >> Yeah. Cuz I got a couple bolts in my femur that ripped through my through a couple tendons and you know, I just got got detoxed and didn't realize it. And uh and I'm here. Um >> uh can I ride a skateboard? Love it. So he gives me a a bunch of blank skateboards and I go back and I'm paperier-mâché. I'm doing hands coming out of him. Just a bunch of really dark demonic stuff. But I felt so good when I came out. My best friend Cole Fackler, same guy I started tribe skates with and uh GVRs with. We went to BUDS together. He grew up in Virginia Beach with me. And so we've been thickest thieves for 25 years now. And he's like, "Well, open up an LLC." He opens up the backside and he's like, "Let's just make skateboarding your art therapy." So, we had an artist come on board. We'd start drawing, you know, motivational things, you know, old school UDT stuff for firemen, stuff for police officers, memorial skateboards. And then I found fracture burning. So, you essentially take a microwave transformer, pull it out, and you hook it up to jumper cables, and then run a lead out to an octopus outlet like 110. So when I clip it on top of the wood and I pour an electrolyte solution on it. Coca-Cola, baking soda with warm water was my favorite. And I hit it, it'll burn the wood grain and they'll connect. Scrub all that out, fill with resin, just make these beautiful pieces. And that was my art therapy. I could sit there and burn skateboards all day every day. It was it was amazing. Like it it truly changed my life. And I don't know why. I didn't grow up around electricity. Obviously, I'm not very good at it. And It was something about having to sit there and sand the lacquer off that skateboard. I mean, I'd buy brand new skateboards. I'd sand the entire graphic off of it and then we'd burn them. You have to sand them off. You'd have to rinse them, wait 24 hours, pour the resin, wait 24 hours, sand them off, pour it again, 24 hours. I mean, it's a 7-day process to make one board. And we'd bring in guys who were transitioning. They do it, too. It was their form of art therapy. And I felt like I was making a difference. And I'm scheduled to retire at the end of August 2019. This is Father's Day. So, is that end of >> June? It's like mid June. Is that right? Something like that. >> Right before I'm scheduled to retire, Father's Day morning around 9:00 a.m. I've been up since 5 burning skateboards. I've got a big bay window. Looks out my backyard and I've got these seesaws set up with these boards. And I've got an EOD guy, explosive ordinance guy from the Navy. He's making uh paddles for retirement. So he comes over, they're covered in lacquer. And I'm like, "Yo, my man, I can't burn them while they have the lacquer." So he's got a sander out. I've been burning. So I unplug my machine. He plugs into my Octopus outlet and is sanding down the lacquer. When he's done, I'll clip in. I'll burn him real quick. He'll finish him off. And my wife, I'll never forget, I look up and she bangs on the window and she's like, "It's Father's Day. We're supposed to go eat brunch." And I was like, "Last burn. Last burn." He had unplugged the sander and plugged in my machine into the oxid outlet and now there's a charge going to it. It's sitting on the ground. I don't know it. And the way I run the protocol is there's no electricity running to its you can put these things in your mouth. There's no electricity. So I pick them up to adjust them because then I'm going to walk back, plug it in, everybody's clear, flick the outlet. And when I readjusted them, the whole thing lit me up. I had them in both hands. >> You closed the circuit. >> Yep. So they were live on the leads just sitting on the ground. I didn't know it. So I went to readjust them. I made contact with them and it spun me around and I faced them about this far away and I can remember the back of my head was trying to touch my tailbone. I was trying to fight it. I could feel my teeth heating up and I was squeezing this thing as hard as I could and I heard a pop and I stepped back. That was my collar bone shattering from flex. My scapula they both shattered but in the process you take a hose and you wash off all the ash. So, right behind me is ankle deep standing water. And now I'm holding on to this thing. I step back and my wife, both my kids are turned around watching me from 8 feet away. I pop up, I levitate, and it launches me about 20 ft across my backyard, still holding on to the leads. He, thank God, has the wherewithal to unplug it. So when I wake up, my hair is standing straight up, my hands are smoking, and I exhale went and all this smoke came out of my mouth and I remember laying on the ground and he's right in my face and he goes, "Do you know where you're at?" And I said, "On the ground." And he went, "Can you move?" And I went, "My shoulder's dislocated for sure." And he went, "Can you set up?" And I went, "Help me." And he pulled me up. And as soon as he put pressure on there, I could feel my scapula just gravel. I could feel this all hinging in there. My hands are smoking. I'm like, so it blew out of my finger, blew out of this thumb. It fused my tendon to the nerve bundle. So, it was stuck like this. I couldn't move anything up here. He stands me up and I tell him, "I'm going to drive myself to the hospital." My wife is freaking out. They're trying to unplug the machine. You know, my kids are running out there and I don't want them to see me like this. I don't have a shirt on. I don't even have shoes on. Just got a pair of shorts and my shorts are on fire. So, I had little um ingrown hairs in my thighs. Electricity was shooting out of those and caught my shorts on fire anywhere I had them. So, out of the top of my head, one um one next to my nether region. I mean, just exit shots coming out of my body. I don't know anything about electricity, but it's not good. And I take a turn and I've probably got to walk maybe 354t to my car. So, he's in there with my wife trying to get the keys, trying to get me in there. And I turned and I stepped to the door. Have you seen Kill Bill? >> Remember the five finger death touch? Five steps. I took one step and everything went I took another one and it started closing and everything started going black. I was like, "Oh god." Third step and I was like, "Oh no." Fourth, fifth and I'm looking through a toilet paper straw and I'm like, "Oh my god." I took one more step and everything went black and I was in total blindness standing out there. I'm opening my eyes as wide as I can and I'm panicking. I can hear my wife running through the house screaming. I can hear him running around screaming, trying to get everything together. And I'm stuck on the side of my house like this, just shaking. I can't see anything. And I start power breathing as deep and as hard as I can. And I saw a little speck of light. And I just kept doing it, just forcing it. Inhale through my nose and mouth. Just power as much as I can. It started to open up, open up, open up. And probably 20 breaths into it, it was like I had superhuman vision. It was like I was interconnected with everything on the planet. It was like I had a DMT trip. Everything was super vibrant. I was totally aware of my whole body. I knew everything that just happened to me. I could recall things from in the past. And I knew everything was going to be fine. I'm good. I walk right over the truck. I open up the car. I get inside it. We hit every single speed bump and pothole from there until the ER. Just joining around and you can hear. >> Just remind you your shoulder uh was a little messed up. >> Shoulders plural. So I walk to the ER and Princess Antara in Virginia Beach has an amazing staff. What they also have is a staff of really, really beautiful nurses. But now it's co so now everybody has a mask on and all you can see are their eyes. And they had the most beautiful eyes I've ever seen. And I'm laying on my back, you know, I walk in and they can see it. Like if one of the nurses made a comment like, "Who brought in barbecue?" And it's my hands. like they're melted. Like they're smoking. It's so bad. Like it's making me nauseous to think about it. >> They get me in that table and I'll never forget this nurse came over and spun her face and she goes, "I'm so surprised you still have a penis." I said, "What?" And she went, "Honey, when you get electrocuted, usually fingers come off, your nose comes off, everything comes off you." And she's like, "As far as we can tell, you're intact. You haven't lost anything right now." She's like, "Move your fingers. I'm moving everything. Open my mouth. Can you hear? I can hear." And she's like, "Okay, well, here we go." They transferred me. I think I took an ambulance ride. I kind of blacked out for a little bit and then I woke up in the burn unit in Norfol and I had the specialist came in. My wife is now with me. We're laying there double slings, you know, trying to identify how bad everything is. They know we've got to do an emergency surgery on all this and he goes, "DJ, so this is after my two months with Vernon. So this is the best physical condition I've ever been in." So, I came from 180, now I'm 220, 6% body fat. I'm in phenomenal shape. Like, I I don't need to retire. I could probably still suit it up again. And now I'm laying in this hospital bed. I have to show you the photos. And he uh he walks in. He's like, "You know what Rabbdo is?" And I said, "Yeah." And he goes, "When you get electrocuted, your body releases an enzyme. Everybody has, but it multiplies rapidly and your muscles liquefy and they go toxic. Then it goes septic and you die. Your issue is you're a big dude. If these enzyme markers hit this level, I got to start cutting stuff out of you, man. >> Taking muscle off. >> Yeah. He's like pecs, lats, shoulders, delts, hamstrings, quads. Like, so every hour I'm coming back here and we got to start doing these enzyme markers. So, I'm laying in that bed, can't move, I can't run, can't do anything. And I'm looking at my wife and I'm just imagining Dr. Gavorvorian coming in here and chopping me up in little pieces. I've never been in a low spot like that. Outside of being stuck behind that tire with Maddie, this was the first time since then where I was a true victim of circumstance. There's nothing I can do to prevent this. There's no magic pill I can take. There's nowhere to run. There's nothing I can do. I'm either going to lay in this hospital bed or I'm going to let that dude come in here and chop me up into pieces. And I'm just consumed with anger, guilt, envy. I just don't want to be here right now. And he came back in the hour and he's like, "Levelles are good. Levels are good." Came back next hour, levels are good. Third hour, fourth hour, fifth hour. And he's like, "DJ, every person on the planet has this enzyme in your body. Everyone. And not only is yours not climbing, not increasing. There's not a trace of it in your body." Now, he's like, "I've never seen anything like it." He's like, >> "Tomorrow morning, you're free to go." Okay. They planned the surgery. They put in two plates, 20s something screws, did the whole thing, but didn't have to chop me up. And you know, from talking to all the other people, typically people get electrocuted by one touch. So this arm comes off, you know, rib cages blow open. They were like, we don't know if it's because you had leads in both hands and you just completed a circuit and were able to ride it. We don't know what would happen if you would have held it for another second and a half. Where's your heart starting and stopping? Just the perfect timing. All the stars had to align for you to be here right now. And it's a medical mystery. So, I took it with that medical mystery and now we're here. But I had to walk back in. So, I get dropped off my house and this is where Vernon really comes into play is I'm sitting in my house in double slings. I've got two kids. I've got a wife. I've got no income. I've got no job. I've got no one that can hire me. And I can't do anything physically. Nothing. I'm just laying there in mental health straight down the tube. And I'm laying there at my kitchen table just feeling absolute the worst I've ever felt. And I get a [ __ ] up to the door, open up the door, and there's my trainer Vernon. He's like, "How are you doing, big guy?" Not good. He like gives me this this halfass hug. We walk in the kitchen. We're sitting down and he's like, "Talk me through it." I was like, "I can't do anything." He's like, "Okay, well, now that we've established that, what can you do?" It's like nothing. Well, can you make a fist? You know, my hands are all banded up. I was like, "Yeah." And he goes, "Can you move your wrist?" Yeah. And he went, "Can you walk?" I'm like, "I can walk." He's like, "Perfect." Pulls out his back pocket, this little blue 2PB dumbbell. And he sticks it in my fingertips. He's like, "Curl it." And I curled up and I did a wrist curl. And he went, "Roll your hand over." Okay. So, we can do grip and we can walk. Here we go. And we did that every single day until I could pressurize my upper body enough to where a sneeze wouldn't [ __ ] me and then we were straight back in the gym. So I'd walk in double slings. He's like, "The only thing we can do is belt squats, lunges, and mobility. That's all we're going to do." >> Do belt squatting and double slings. >> Uh-huh. >> That's awesome. But not hold. So you're not holding on to the holes. It's none of that. >> I can't do anything. So I'd literally walk in, I'd step through like a hula hoop. He would bring it up around me. I'd step on the platform. I'd squat down. He'd clip me in. I'd stand up. He'd unrackck it. I'd do my set, re-rackck it. He'd take the belt off me over and over. And he rebuilt me back every single day, five days a week. And we have never missed a session together since 2019. Never. Saved my life, man. >> That is awesome. >> He is the best human. He's been more of a life coach than a strength coach. >> He has unbelievable. And without him, if he wouldn't have walked in with that two-lb dumbbell, there's no telling where I'd be at right now. I told that story of the tactical strength condition conference like no one does that. No one is going to come over during that moment and push you. Everybody's going to walk over and put I'm so sorry for you. Oh, I can't believe this happened. Not him. It's like control things you can control. Can you make a fist? Can you turn your wrist? Wrist curls in 20-minute walks. Here we go. And that's what we did every single day. Bounce it all the way back. I mean, he's been there. Had to get a surgery on my hand. had to rebuild this whole hand. All the strength and everything we've had to do, the stomach, the kidney, everything in between. He's been there for. >> How many years ago was that? The roughly >> That was in 2019. So, what is that? >> It wasn't that long ago. >> Six years. >> And now you're feeling great. Super robust. We'll talk about your training now and what people can do with that training. I've I've gleaned a lot of really useful information about your from your current training program about setting standards and >> um >> that is a wild ride. >> I always say like at least give me a cool story with it. Like you know I got this skinny thing going on. Not a cool story. Electrocution it's a cool story. You know it's a feel-good story at the end. It wasn't going through it but >> you know surround yourself with people better than you and they'll definitely pull you out of the >> depths of despair. >> I mean it's an amazing story. At at one point I thought when you made the return to the skateboarding thing I thought, "Oh, you going to start skateboarding again. You feel that it almost it almost killed you and it didn't even have trucks and wheels on the thing yet." >> Exactly. >> Oh man. I'm going to take a second to absorb all that. Um, I was going to ask you this later when we talk about Ibeane and DMT. >> Um, and some of the emerging uh therapeutics for PTSD, substance abuse, and other things that uh veterans are really uh fully embracing now and and that are making uh a clear march toward broader treatment of mental health issues. But uh I'll ask you now and I'll probably ask you again later. at any point in this um or headed into this whole set of things um setbacks and comebacks um did you have feelings of higher power? I mean I don't want to put you on the spot but were you raised religious? Do believe in God any of that? I mean, you know, were it not for the fact that a a very very seriously scientifically educated friend of mine, Stanford Medical School, Harvard uh medical um who was a lifetime atheist, turned to me recently and he said, you know, I he said he said in his words, I believe in miracles. I said, miracle miracles or medical miracles? And he said, miracle miracles. Said, really? You of all people? Uh, and he said, "Yeah, believe in." And I said, "How?" And he said, "Because um I don't want to reveal who this person is out of um you know, it's his right to talk about these things, but he said out uh because of his math training." He said, you know, that some of the things he's seen and experienced have have exceeded um probability statistics that it's impossible for the that literally impossible for these things to happen. this isn't, you know, one in a trillion or one in 10 trillion that it that some of these miracles go beyond what chance could provide uh intersecting chances. And so, you know, to hear a story like yours, people will come up with their own interpretations. And I'm a scientist. I believe in science. I I do happen to believe in God, but I it's an individual choice for everybody. But did you ever step back and and wonder whether or not in addition to Vernon, in addition to Maddie, in addition to your teammates, in addition to your wife whose father happened to be a team guy, I mean, there's some things around Virginia Beach they could have predicted that perhaps, but >> did you ever pause and just go, "Yeah, maybe there are forces beyond everything I can see that are uh watching out for me because you've you've had a number of second, third, fourth chances that starting to sound miraculous >> they are. It we didn't grow up religious at all. I was always spiritual. Always like and I mean you experience things in life that can't be can't be explained. And then when you see religious people like well that's a miracle. You're like is it a miracle or am I just lucky? You start to look at it. And then you do buy the neodym and you realize like yep it's got to be it's got to be real. Like there has to be a higher power. There has to be something that's pulling the strings. It's making this happen. Like divine intervention. There's no reason I should be here after that. after this this you add up all these things like there's not a chance like why like what am I supposed to be doing here how am I supposed to pay that forward like if somebody's pulling the strings to make sure I'm sitting in a seat what am I doing to make sure I'm not wasting this opportunity but I mean it definitely makes you question I mean I I definitely see why guys get I don't want to say hung up on religion but when they they really buy in they really turn the page and you're like how much of that is just for TV none of it with that Right. Like he felt it. He saw the change. And I mean, I've seen too many miracles happen to believe that somebody's not behind it. Some things not behind it. >> Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that. Um I realize that especially on a science health podcast and we talk about other things, but it it's talked about it more and more recently just I mean I can't help but be a curious human being and wonder about these things. um whatever the case may be, uh you you made it through. Um you retired. You you did you uh I couldn't imagine if your wife had uh had um heard that you were not going to retire. I I mean I I like to think that nothing can break your guys's uh marriage, but man, that's got that's a lot to bear. >> She was over it. >> Yeah. With the kids seeing this. Um >> Yeah. you know, and I had turned myself into something I was I wasn't proud of. >> You know, I talk about dials, not switches, like being able to power down, power it up, power it off. I never did that. So, she got to see the transition from being at Tiltington and then going over the tier one organization and what that does with you, the pressure to perform, the performance on demand, it it changes you. It has to. You can't be the same person you were at 17, 19, 20 and then do that job. You can't. You have to be able to change. And I think a lot of that it was just it was wearing her down. I mean, I was gone so much. And a lot of that I tried to explain to the guys now like don't do what I did. I would go on every single trip I could because I was living these multiple different lives. Like I would go out to Arizona and I would skydive for months on end. I mean, I think I did almost 4,000 jumps in seven years. Like, we went we turned the page. And that's deploying. That's every other training trip. That's just sacrificing every weekend and making big pushes out there. But when you go, no one knows who you are. They don't know what you do for a job. They just think you're a normal skydiver. Like, we're doing these big wave formations and, you know, trying out for world records and doing all this stuff. And it's amazing. But it just takes you so far away from that person I have to be in Virginia Beach. You become addicted to it. And then when I go here, I can be someone else completely. No one knows who I am. I go on this trip, no one knows who I am. You don't talk about the job you do. You make up a line. I'll throw them out there and it'll make them all mad. We tell everybody you're part of the Red Bull Air Force. >> Red Bull Air Force. >> Yeah. Like we skydive with all the boys, we know them all. And because you skydive enough, you can speak the lingo. Like they see you out all the drop zones. They see >> you can fake that really, really well. Some guys will be a hot air balloon pilot. You'll be an MMA fighter. You'll be a hockey team or we had real long hair. you can adopt these different personas and I think a lot of that is just trying to compartmentalize what you have back home where I don't have to think about it because you'll literally I mean your buddies will tell you you'll be sitting on the couch at 2:00 in the afternoon and when that pager goes off you're gone right now like you got 30 minutes there's no goodbye there's no oh let me swing by work real quick and give you one kiss you don't I'm going fishing jump in a car and you're gone and you got to be able to shut it off it's very very hard to do when You're just so obsessed with being the best husband and the best father. You can't shut that off. The whole flight ends. You're just thinking about like if this happens, this happens. How my daughter's going to react? Like, oh my god, they're going to come here. What point of the day she's going to get the news? How if they get I'm not going to be there for the marriage. I'm not going to be there for this this. You start to think about everything you're going to miss. Clouds your judgment. And it makes you hesitate at that moment. You can't you can't hesitate, especially when no one else does. And you paint that in your mind. Nobody else in here is thinking about being a full-time dad or a full-time husband right now. Nobody cares if I'm a 63% husband. Nobody cares. They need me to do this job at 100% because that's what this craft deserves. But it turns you into something you don't want to be longterm. It's hard, man. But she was done. She was begging for me to hang it up cuz all of our friends are dying. And then all the guys that transition out and they start doing contracting jobs, they're getting killed. They're getting shot. We're picking up from the hospital. What else you want me to do? There's no retirement club. You want me to work at Home Depot? What do you want me to do? I only know how to do this one thing. And that was the plan. I was going to retire and start contracting with one of the government agencies and essentially do the same job I do now, just make a little bit better money, a little bit better schedule, and one thing led to another and ended up not doing it. >> I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, ROA. Roka makes eyeglasses and sunglasses that are of the absolute highest quality. I'm excited to share that Roka and I recently teamed up to create a new pair of red lens glasses. These red lens glasses are meant to be worn in the evening after the sun goes down. They filter out shortwavelength light that comes from screens and from LED lights, which are the most common indoor lighting nowadays. I want to emphasize Roa Red Lens glasses are not traditional blue blockers. They do filter out blue light, but they filter out a lot more than just blue light. In fact, they filter out the full range of short wavelength light that suppresses the hormone melatonin. By the way, you want melatonin high in the evening and at night. Makes it easy to fall and stay asleep. And those short wavelengths trigger increases in cortisol. Increases in cortisol are great in the early part of the day, but you do not want increases in cortisol in the evening and at night. These Roa Red Lens glasses ensure normal, healthy increases in melatonin and that your cortisol levels stay low, which is again what you want in the evening and at night. In doing so, these Roka Red Lens glasses really help you calm down and improve your transition to sleep. Roka Red Lens glasses also look great. They have a ton of different frames to select from, and you can wear them out to dinner or concerts, and you can still see things. I don't recommend you wear them while driving just for safety purposes. But if you're out to dinner, you're at a concert, you're at a friend's house, or you're just at home, pop those Roka Red Lens glasses on, and you'll really notice the difference in terms of your levels of calm and all the sleep stuff I mentioned earlier. So, it really is possible to support your biology. be scientific about it and remain social at the same time if you like. If you'd like to try ROA, go to roka.com. That's roka.com and enter the code hubman to save 20% off your first order. Again, that's roa.com and enter the code huberman at checkout. I want to talk about ibame DMT mental health. >> But first, I want to talk a little bit about posture. M >> recently I heard you talking about physical posture in the gym, literally form and how upright one is with their stance or squat and how that translates to mental posture and it was the first time I've ever heard anyone talk about translating the physical into the mental in this way. Um so if you don't mind uh how do you think about mental posture and physical posture and how the two intersect? I think in that analogy, the metaphor I used, physical posture, if you think if I stand feet shoulderwidth apart and I put a barbell on me, you slide on 45s, I'm strong. Two more 45s, I'm strong. You could load up 8 900 lb and I could sit there and hold it. Or if you put 315 lbs on it, I can drop butt the floor and I can squat it. If I hold it at 90° and you add on a 45, it feels like a ton. You start adding on 10, everything starts to quiver. I use the same thing as my mental health. If I wake up in the morning, I've set my morning routine and I'm firing on all eight cylinders. You can stack on everything on top of me because I'm in an optimal state. I can take it just like I'm in a full posture. Just keep giving it to me. Keep giving it to me. If I wake up, my morning routine's not there. I start reading some hateful stuff in the morning, don't have a good input with my wife first thing, I'm stuck behind the school bus, late for my first meeting, now you hand me a parking ticket. it feels like the world is collapsing on top of me and I can't do anything for it. So throughout the entire day, that's the whole purpose of the micro win kind of formula. Stack up as many wins to put yourself in optimal headsp space because reality isn't going to know. It's going to smack you either way. And if I keep myself blocking everything that's externally toxic to me when something does get put on me that I have to wear, I'm in a good posture to put it on. That jacket might weigh 55 pounds. I put it on and I'm still strong cuz I've been dropping off everything that I don't need to wear all day long. Yeah. I mean, but you'll see it. I mean, I know you say it analyze people all day long. When people are in a negative headsp space, their posture changes, their head drops, their shoulders roll forward. They're always looking at the ground. They're never up processing information. It's because they're dragging whatever just happened all day long. Now you add in one more thing. Your mom's got cancer. Oh, your wife's going to leave you. Oh, your kids are so everything just starts to weigh down on you and it feels feels like something you'll never get past. Insurmountable. It's at some point and that's all because you start to let it slowly but surely chip away at you. It's like control the things you can control and the things you can control you either avoid them completely or you take them as that's reality you have to live through right now. I don't know why you have cancer but you do and you got to get through it. Okay. Well, what positive things do I have? Great relationship with my wife, great relationship with my kids, great relationship with my friends, my social circle is shrunk, everyone around me is better than me and they want me to be better. Okay, I can take on a whole lot if I don't have a tight circle, no relationship, my wife, ostracized my kids, everything. Now, you start to add on that external stress, it it cripples me really, really fast. And I know I'm not the only one. So when I say it to everybody, whatever you have going on right now, whatever is absorbing all your bandwidth, it's us two, but you're choosing to wear that jacket all day. You're putting on another one and then another one. Then you add the external pressure of having to provide for a family and be, you know, that emotionally stable figure for the household. It's hard to do all day long. And a lot of people lose sight of it. And I think that's why so many people close their chapter early. They offer suicide because they think there's no way I can write the ship. Like it's go it's gone too far right now and I don't want to have to sit here and rebuild it and they close the chapter out. It's like if we could have eliminated all those things and given yourself a breath of fresh air, would you have done the same thing? If I would have grabbed you right before the moment like this isn't permanent. You can fix this right now. You just have to change these aspects. They would in the moment though and I've been there. You don't have the clarity. you don't have the vision. And a guy told me a long time ago, he goes, "I think a lot of people want to hit the reset button on the Nintendo." Cha-ching. Restart. Restart the game. You're not restarting the game. It's over forever. And I hate seeing people do it. I think now, you know, after I've come out of the medicine, I've done a bunch of therapy and cut out a lot of toxicity out of my life. I've gotten that breath of fresh air. And I'm just I told Marcus and Amber Capone when I came out of the treatment, I'm going to jump on the nearest building. I'm going to shout it from the rooftops like this will help. There is a way out of this funk. It's just one step further than you've currently gone. Like there's light at the end of that tunnel. Just one step further. One step further and just continuously go and it'll get better. But yeah, for me posture is a huge thing. In combatives, it's a huge thing. In processing information, it's a huge thing. In dealing with stress, it's a huge thing. I can't let myself collapse because once you start adding another pound to me, it hits me to the floor really fast. So, control the things you can control and a lot of it is just your posture and your perspective. Great message. Would you agree that lying down in bed on one's phone on social media is a very dangerous posture cuz I would argue that >> and I also tell guys if you are going to lay in a fetal position and tweet out how bad your mental health is, stop. Go to a Starbucks, go to Whole Foods, walk around and see normal human interaction and tell a stranger you're suffering from mental health. They don't do it. You're just going to sit there in a fetal position feeling sorry for yourself and you think it'll get better tomorrow. It won't. I've already lived that life. I've already painted the picture for you. I've played you the movie. You've watched it. It's not going to work. You're going to have to get out of that bed and you're going to have to do something every single day that brings you out of that dark depression. And for me, it's physical movement. If you have the ability to move, move. Don't lay in that bed. Don't just sit there and scroll. You know, Vernon says it. Your diet's important. Not what you eat, but what you consume visually, audio, the music you listen to. We all know there's some music you listen to that just changes you ever so slightly. Is that the person I need to be walking to the store? Do I need to blare mega death right now? No. I need to play Ludovico. That's what I need. I need to walk into this room at 100% full capacity and just receive whatever energy is in the room right now. It's hard to do if I'm in the depths of despair right now. So, yeah, I try to put myself in a position where I have optimal posture all day. >> You mentioned uh Marcus and Amber Capone. Now is probably a good time for us to just reference who they are and um the work that you guys have been doing. And uh and anytime I sort of plug something or mention something, I want to be very clear. I don't have any formal affiliation to this upcoming Netflix um show movie. Is it what it's a film? Excuse me. Uh to this uh upcoming Netflix film, >> but it's going to be an incredible film. I know this cuz I've seen bits of it. U maybe just mention who Marcus and Amber Capone are and what they've been doing and the film. I do think this is something everyone should see. I'm definitely going to see it. And uh I'll just say that u I think their organization Veteran Solutions is one I've been paying attention to and trying to support in ways I can uh over the last gosh it's been three four years and um so maybe tell us about Marcus and Amber and the film. So Marcus uh joined the SEAL teams right pre 911, married Amber, had a baby right now in the SEAL teams, got stationed on the east coast of me at Seal Team 10. And >> you could watch him change throughout the years like everybody else, but because he's such a big polarizing figure. He's hard to miss. I mean, he's probably 6'5. He's a big guy and he was extremely intimidating, >> but he always had a light in his eyes. He always seemed like a dude you wanted to be around. And after the conflicts and multiple deployments, I mean, you'd see him out in town and his eyes got jet black and he would be a guy that if you were walking on the street and you saw him come out, just the way he looked at you, you would cross the street. And he became one of those guys. I gave you the analogy walking to the SPCA and you see that pitbull, ears been shaved off, there's scars all over his face, you're not going to put your hand in that cage. Marcus Capone was like that. He leaves the SEAL teams, has a very rocky transition, gets a job in finance, moves around, and you hear it through the rumor mill about how bad he's doing, drinking, just not the person you wanted him to be, and definitely not the transition you wanted for him. And then it got so bad that, you know, suicide was definitely on the table, circling the drain, drinking way too much, just toxic in every way you can imagine. And Amber being the angel that she is started to research different solutions. He did mer meditation, yoga, talk therapy, drugs, did everything you could. And she found Ibegan and 5 Mod DMT and convinced him to go down there. And it was one of those things much like mine. You're going to go do this treatment and this is our last attempt. And if this doesn't work, I'm leaving you. And for a team wife to throw in the towel after the career is over, that lets you know how bad it is because they have combed that entire thing. I mean, they were in the heart of NSW, in the heart of the GWAD, and buried more friends than you ever count care to count. And after all of that, she's finally going to throw in the towel. That's how bad he's gotten. And you know, you hear that he came back and you wouldn't even recognize him. Like, you won't believe what Marcus Capone looks like. and I hadn't seen him. But you got to understand coming from the east coast and I'm an idealist. Like I'm a true believer and when you hear that Marcus left the east coast and went to the west coast and now he's doing yoga, meditation and smoking toad venom, you're like west coast typical. I I knew you'd turn him and then you see him, you're like, that's the best version of Marcus I've ever seen. >> And he's not a pacifist. He can still roll that dial all the way over, but he has full control over it. Mhm. >> You know, 20 years old, flicked a Navy Seal switch and just lived that life to the fullest. Never had a balance point. Never needed one, never tried to adopt one. So during my whole transition, I'll say when he got out, they sat dormant on that medication for a while because it was so out there and you didn't want to shock the culture. You didn't want to shock the community. And it's taboo. I mean, doing psychedelics is not a thing that Navy Seals do. >> Yeah. Ibegan is a 22-hour psychedelic. It's a very esoteric. Most people have heard of psilocybin or even LSD or MDMA. It's and DMT. I mean, it's a this is as far out there as you possibly can go. I'm sure someone sitting there is like, "No, there's some chemical made in, you know, but this it's extreme. >> It is extreme." And just like the SEAL teams, you do everything to the extreme and that's where you go. >> A theme there. Yeah. And you know, I was going through a similar thing. But when they came out, one of his very good friends, Chad Wilkinson, committed suicide. And I think enough was enough. And that was one of his best friends. And it crippled him. And when you see him get the news, you can watch that visual. Oh god, I'm trying to cry. You can watch that loss affect him in a way that nobody else will understand. And he knew he was holding on to this secret. Like this saved my life. And if I would have given that to him, he'd still be here. and I know it. What am I going to do? I got to start a 501c3 and I got to start saving as many people as humanly possible. And selfishly, I'm going to save as many SEALs as humanly possible. And once you saved one, save two, three, four, five, Army Rangers, Green Breeze, fighter pilots, they all just start pouring in here. It's the same trauma. It doesn't matter how you got it. You're at the brink of it. And you're going to close this chapter out. And this medicine is going to give you that breath. It's going to give you that relief to not do it. and they made this little infomercial that was on social media talking about psychedelics and I had heard about it and I kind of whitewashed it and my wife was at the same point. She was getting ready to leave me and take the two kids and I can't do this anymore and we laid in bed one night and she watched it and she was crying and she leaned over and she made me watch it and I started balling because I could see the difference. So last time I saw Marcus and this Marcus is very very different and she looked over and she goes, "If you love me, you'll go." I went, I'll go do psychedelics with my friends in Mexico. Sure. I I never thought it would do anything because I had messed up so much until that point. All the pharmaceuticals, all the mistakes I had made, the infidelity, everything had led me up to that point. And I had that secret inside me. And I did not have the strength to tell her. I didn't want to break her heart about all the things I had messed up. And for me, if you think me going down to Mexico is going to save our marriage, I will 100% do it. But I never thought for a chance it would. Never. And I went down there with a bunch of guys that were legends inside of the community. And you know, Ambio, Trevor, Jose, Jonathan, Brianna, everybody at Ambio Life Sciences, they run the best facility I've ever been a part of in any facility. That medicine is so strong. And I think that's why guys get such relief. It's the only thing stronger than your ego because you've turned yourself into this vessel you think represents the essence of what being a Navy Seal is. You're hard. You're determined. You'll never lose. Like you you'll sacrifice everything right now if the group asks you to do it. But you won't do it for yourself. You'll never put your individual needs above the needs of the group. And this is one point where you have to. You have to go for the good of the group. I have to suck up my ego. Got to suck up my pride. and I have to try to kill it right now. And we went down there and took that medicine. And I have a combat instructor. His name is Tom Ker from Seak Tactical Group. If you've ever watched uh the movie The Hunted with Denio Del Toro, the knife fighting, that's what they do. And they are the best in the world. And Tom Ker is a knowledge transfer specialist. He's changed my life in mindset more than anybody else on the planet. and he told me a quote the other day and it it references this kind of and we were talking about experience and he goes if you understand no explanation's needed if you don't understand no explanation is possible and that came from Dave Joyce another seak disciple and it's the truest thing I've ever heard unless you've done I gain unless you've done psychedelics in a therapeutic setting you'll have no idea how powerful it is and when I woke up that next day everything I had ever done negative positive erased. Everything negative, every conversation, every bad deed, every time I've hurt anybody, every time I've made my wife cry, every time I've not been present was in the forefront of my mind. And I felt absolutely terrible. I felt like a monster for everything I had done. Every time I had not been present, every time I had sacrificed them for this thing, I didn't want to go home. And at the same token, it was the only time in my life I'd ever been homesick. I wanted to teleport and go home and wrap my arms around those three, but I was so embarrassed at everything that I had done. There's no way I can do it. I can't go home and break their heart. And you have the gray day after you do Ibegan. I mean, it feels like you got hit by a a freight train just in your fields. Dudes are throwing up all day depending on how your experiences. The next day you do five Mio DMT and that's the ego death. You know, comes Sonor and Desert Toad. They milk out the poison glands and that's essentially what you're smoking. It's pretty intimidating. Looks like you're smoking crack rock. And that experience when you smoke that, it must be like either what finding religion or what dying's like. >> Well, you almost died with the electrocution. And we had a uh very accomplished neuroscientist on the podcast, Kristoff [ __ ] who talked about um he's been studying consciousness for a long time and he talked about his experiences on five DMT total dissolution of self, total dissolution of space and time, but he described um that he that the his mind was still there, but nothing else was there. And again, if someone hasn't done it, I've never done it, but if someone hasn't done it, I'm guessing that no description will will suffice. I've heard it like from another team guy being described as being strapped to the shock wave of an atom bomb like um you know, I've I've heard a bunch of different description sounds. When you come out of that experience, however, how did that reframe the electrocution, the loss of I mean, we could spend three days talking about every single guy that you know that's been killed and still probably only uh touch on small number of them sadly. You know, so how does all that get reframed coming out of an experience like that? The biggest concern doing Iva gain was that you were going to be stuck inside of your own thoughts. Everybody you had lost, you were just going to relive it. You were going to be in the back of that helicopter. You were just going to have to relive that for 24 straight hours. And I will tell you that not a single person that I have ever done I gain with has ever had any military experience. It's always been your childhood and then a reflection of what you've done to your wife and kids. It gaps it. So I've done Iain four times. I have never had a singular military experience ever. Nothing. >> Childhood. >> Big time. >> Childhood. And then in in the actual medicine, it would allow me to relive past events with my father, with my mother, hard conversations, you know, blowups, arguments, screams, things you >> things I had forgotten, things that were never on my conscious mind. And now I'm reliving them. And then it would shift and it would be me doing that exact same thing to my wife, to my kids. And then it'll put you in their position. So when I'm screaming, I'm projecting just this hate and this venom is shooting out of me. I can be that seven-year-old little girl and I can feel how frightened she is by what she's watching her father turn into. >> So real empathy, >> that is what it is. you become so empathetic to everyone and everything and it's the forefront of your mind like I don't want to go home because now I know what I've done. I can't mask it anymore. There's no more compartmentalization. I've done I've done all those things. I've said that terrible stuff and I'm never going to be able to reearn my seats at the table. And it's one of those weird predicaments where I want to go home, but I don't because I don't want to face that. I actually did and said that. It's like out of every good thing I've ever done, it all got erased on that moment. The only thing we're going to focus on is all the bad stuff you've ever done and said. So when we came into 5 MO, I did six rounds of 5 MO my first time down there. Every single one is the most painful thing you've ever been a part of. It feels um and Trevor says it beautifully down at AMBO. He said, "Whatever's going to happen, let it happen. If you think you're going to explode, explode. You think you're going to die, die. You think you're going to drown or blast off in the stratosphere, do it. Don't try to control it. That medicine will take you exactly where you need to go. You just have to let it. And every time I would, I would start, I would scream, and then I would cry and convulse, throw up, and I'd wake up and I'd look around and he'd look at me again, go, hit him again, and I'd do it again, and I'd do it again. And it was the very last time I did 5mel. You got understand I was super depressed and I was most certainly suicidal. I did not want to come home and face reality. And I took that last one and right before I did, I can't remember if it was the the nurse or cuz we used to have teen guys who would sit there and hold space for you, not taking the medicine, just they were there to basically safeguard the house so you could just focus on you cuz it's hard to be put under essentially anesthesia in a foreign country and you don't know what's going to happen to you. >> So there's comfort in knowing there's team guys around you. And it was either the nurse or one of the team guys goes, "You want to kill yourself, right?" I said, "Yeah." And he goes, "Then do it. Do it with this right here." And I changed my intention for the medicine. And I told myself it was this pink toxin, this purple toxin. I'm going to inhale it. I'm going to coat my entire body with this. I'm going to kill myself right here so I don't have to go home. And that changed the entire experience for me. Everything shrunk down jet black and a single white pixel showed up and it exploded and it looked like it was Star Trek taking off all the tracers and everything. It felt like your sternum broke open and your soul left your body and it was the true ego death and it went from screaming thrashing to complete bliss and love and affection and empathy and compassion and everything. And I woke up and I looked at him and I could not believe the way I instantly I mean the most sober you've ever been. You're not on any medication, not cannabis, not not an aderall, nothing. You can't be on any medication when you go down there. So this is true sobriety at its finest. And when you wake up, it's exactly like the electrocution. Everything is more vibrant. The table edges are slick and clean. Like I can feel the taste and the texture. And I can feel the energy coming out of everybody. And it's like I can tell her I can go home and I can confess everything right now because I understand that I have done more good than bad and she's going to see it. She just has to see the new me. And we went home and you know everything kind of unfolded and all my past indiscretions came to life and it was it was the darkest moment for me because I didn't think she was going to take me back and she ends up pulling my sunglasses off. She pulls them off and looks me and essentially collapsed in my arms. Like I was back. I'd been gone for 15 years and now I'm home and the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. And if I wouldn't have gone down to Mexico, there was no talk therapy. There was no meditation. There was no cold plunge. It was going to get me there. It was something stronger than me. And when you look back, I'd been building that physical vessel, this mental resilient vessel this entire time. So nothing could break me. And I needed something stronger than that to break me. And the moment it did, my whole life changed. Everything changed. And I really became an advocate for the medicine because I'd been there. I've been sitting in my guest room with that pistol in my lap staring around the ceiling wondering where my brain matter is going to go and what my wife's going to see and how she's going to have to clean it up and resell the house and just all the things. I mean, that's where you're at and that's where a lot of guys are and they don't believe they can get a breath of fresh air. And that medicine will give it to you. It is not a cure all. you have to go back and restructure your entire life and cut out the toxicity. And that was one of the most powerful things we did is I came back from that medicine. I sit down the edge of that bed with my wife after we had gone through everything I had done and I went through my phone and we blocked and deleted about 150 people out of my life. Best thing I ever did. Like you're never coming back in here. I've been trying to foster and save that relationship the better part of a decade. I'm not doing it anymore. you're robbing bandwidth and you're robbing the little time I have left on this planet that I'm going to try to devote to my family because I have to reearn this seat at the table every single day. And it gave me the ability to do that. And I came home, started preaching about the medicine, and then as I started to tell guys, you'd see guys that were interested and they were like, "Well, if it worked for him, cuz I'm a true believer, I'm devout." And they're like, "If it worked for him, it'll work for me." But they're scared to go. So, I was probably home maybe a month or two. I went right back down and I essentially hosted one. I'm cooking breakfast for the boys. I'm cleaning snot off of them. I'm doing the whole thing. Just trying to push them. And slowly but surely, you start saving guys 10 guys at a time over and over. And you know, that's really all because of Marcus and Amber. If they would not have made that little infomercial airing out all their dirty laundry and how open and transparent he was, like that is not the Navy Seal way. That is not how you're supposed to do it. And when he did it, it was so empowering to me. I mean, I looked up to him. I mean, he was on his second deployment when I came in. And you know, Marcus is larger than life to me. So, when you see that openness, that transparency, I can do that. I can do that, too. And if I do that, some kid going through the exact same thing as me, that's stuck on that island alone, will see me and go, if he can do it, I can do it. You got to want to change. And you have to put steps in in place to where you can live at full value. the morning routine. I don't break it because I know what happens if I don't have it. The worst I've ever been. I wasn't living that morning routine. I was still working out, but it was chaotic at best, right? Like my range wasn't there. My combives wasn't there. I slowly let it drift away to where I was a shell of myself. And once I got that breath of fresh air, I am never going back. I mean, I just came back on Saturday. I went back down again. Took down a bunch of veterans, a bunch of civilians that were down there. And it's so interesting to see because you have fighter pilots that are down there. You have normal housewives that have drinking problems, toxic marriage, sexual abuse, all this different stuff. And everybody's ended up the exact same spot. We've tried everything. We tried the drugs, we tried the talk therapy, the cold plunges, the saunas, all that. And it's helping, but it's not getting us over the goal line. And when those people wake up the very next day, they are at total rock bottom. And when they come out of that five amo DMT, they their feet don't hit the ground for months. You are on cloud9 and you cannot believe how good you feel. I just want the world to be able to experience that. It doesn't matter what trauma you have going on. It's not a Navy Seal medicine or a medicine for special operations. This is a medicine to save humanity. And if you were at the bottom of the barrel right now, they'll save you. I mean, I went on 60 pills a day. I'm not on anything. Not a single pain med. I mean, I've got more screws in me than Home Depot. And I feel like a million bucks, but you know, for me, my family deserved it. And if I have to go down there and go through all that trauma over a 5day period to give them a better version of myself, I'll do it every single time. That juice is so worth the squeeze. But it's scary, man. It is because you're afraid. And when I talk to guys, they're so afraid they're going to come out of it and be a pacifist. They're afraid they're going to lose the edge. And like, well, what if you did that medicine while you were in the teams? Could you still do that job? 100%. I just wouldn't have drugg him home with me. I could have done that job and empowered it off and I could have done my same routine now and I could have went home and been a full-time husband and a full-time father. I could still compartmentalize it when I went to work and I could just focus on work because I'm running on dials and not switches. You can't just turn it on, shut it off. You can't. You got to be able to back it off slowly. That's why I use that drive into work every day. I'm not thinking about my family in three, two, one. All I'm thinking about is a lift because that's the only priority I have. Once a lift is done, what's the piece of content we're shooting? What's the training course we're doing? Who do I need to be when I walk through that threshold? And that medicine really gave me the ability to navigate between those spaces better than anything else I've ever found. And I'm so thankful for it. I know it sounds hokey and I am not that guy. You know, yoga and, you know, crystal, I'm not that dude. And it's very fufu. A lot of it is. And a lot of people practicing that stuff, they push it so far out and left that you think that you're ended up like one of the lost boys. You run around the rainforest with feathers hanging out of your hair. It's not like that. It's not like that at all. It's an amazing facility. It's an amazing program. And I'm just so thankful that they had they had the ability to share that message. If they wouldn't have, we'd be in the exact same position. I think they've put in I think three or four thousand people through that medicine in the last I think three years. They're absolutely saving people's lives. It's uh been remarkable to see the growth of Veteran Solutions. Again, I have no formal affiliation. It's just something that I observed and I I really uh respect and my colleague who's been a guest on this podcast, Dr. Nolan Williams. He's a triple board certified physician. He's my colleague at Stanford. And um you know couple couple of reflections that I think perhaps are also important for people listening to to hear because um you said go down there it's done in Mexico uh because it's still not legalized in the United States. Um it requires supervision. Uh this is very different even than psilocybin MDMA LSD. There's there's really no recreational use of of these things uh that is reasonable or safe. So, just I'm not saying that just to protect myself. I'm saying that to protect people listening. Um, that said, you know, Nolan and I have talked a lot about this. He's the one scanning guys that go down there and come back. And, um, I think it's fair to say that pretty much every positive shift, whether it's an improvement or a cure from a mental health issue, is brain plasticity. Something gets rewired. And these are tools to enable brain plasticity. And I think it's helpful perhaps for people to hear it that way because psychedelic sounds like um tie-dye sounds like kaleidoscope, sounds like magic carpet, sounds like the 60s, sounds like people staring at the sun, burning their eyes out, and then talking about how they've seen God and everyone else needs to have the same experience, summer love, dirty feet, and all that. Okay. >> Um it is amazing to me that the veterans community and a bipartisan effort. I will say this is one of the few truly bipartisan efforts out there. Everything's so polarized. But former Governor Rick Perry of Texas, who is self-described knuckle drug dragging Republican. He said that. I'm not saying that about him. He says it every time. Has fully embraced Ibagain and what heart medicine sometimes called the MDMA therapies as well. has been really working with people on the Democratic side of the aisle to try and uh get FDA approval for this stuff in the United States first for the treatment of veterans and other people with substance use and and and severe trauma issues first and then it will be explored how this could wick out into the broader population. But I just think of them as incredibly powerful tools for brain plasticity. Um, and then maybe that just kind of softens for people in their minds a little bit of what just how wild and crazy it is. I mean, the experiences are extreme. As you said, it's it's challenging to be in the Ibagane. I've heard that from everyone who's done it. Uh, I haven't yet done I gain at some point I will, but I've certainly um done therapeutic uh sessions with MDMA, therapeutic and highdosily, and it's can be terrifying and you need to be someone there to help guide you through it at times. But I'm so happy that Marcus and Amber uh undertook this project that you joined up with that project and the Netflix movie. We'll provide a link to it if it's out. Otherwise, we'll just cue people to the fact that they should definitely watch this. It's extremely compelling um an important story for people to hear. I can't help but mention just because um I've had the the great uh uh experience of of being able to interact with so many people around this and the effort is so wholehearted and is so um deeply rooted in trying to help people and I think that's really important for people to hear too because anytime there's a business association with things people all start to color that it's just there's just so much pure intent in all of this. I also have gotten to know Sarah Wilkinson a little bit. Um >> she's amazing. >> She's amazing. Chad's Chad's wife. Um uh first through Veteran Solutions and um you know she she's an amazing woman and you know and and I think it's been challenging to see all these guys that he was friends with get better, right? And it's it's so tragic that someone has to take their own life for for things like this to eventually get stimulated. But the amount of good that Veteran Solutions is catalyzing is really spectacular. And so I'm glad we're taking some time to talk about it. I think it's been discussed on other podcasts. I think this movement is just going to grow. I think it's broken through now and hopefully this will continue to help it break through. >> When the whole thing first started, John Shank and Bonnie Cohen reached out about doing the film in Ways and War. And they actually kind of tricked me to be a part of it. They told me that Marcus and Amber were spearheading this project. So I was like, if Marcus and Amber in, I'm in. I owe them anyway. They saved me. I'm into it. That wasn't really the case. They spearheaded me. I'm on board. And then he convinced Marcus and Amber to join on board. And now it's essentially his whole story, unfiltered, unbiased. My whole story and then us going back for my buddy Maddie and how all our lives are entangled in teams and just all the trauma we all share and how we're all getting through it. But you know, it kills addiction in one shot, which is crazy. People addicted to heroin. Like I dipped Copenhagen for 17 years. Never wanted to quit. And I woke up the very next morning from Ian and I've never had a dip. So >> that's so wild. >> And I want to dip. like I miss it and as soon as I smell it, I can't do it. It's like I didn't drink coffee for six months. It's like I want to drink coffee and then I have no desire. My energy levels are through the roof. Like everything is better. Like I kind of just want to be normal again. It's like slowly but surely introduce coffee and whatever else. But you have no addictions. And I was at the bottom of the barrel. I mean I was taking extreme doses of gabapentin, tramodol, tordol, everything else. And you know, Tramodol is not habit forming. Yeah. Take it for 12 years and tell me it's not like it most certainly is. And to be able to whitewash all of that gone in one shot. I mean, the doctors, I was never getting off those meds. Never. Like, if you want to function in society, you have to take these medications for the rest of your life. And I was fine with it. I'm totally good. And then on the backside, you see that it doesn't matter if I was drinking a 12-pack a day or if I was just popping these 60 pills. I was under the influence of something all day, every day for 15 years. That's not how I want to be. It's not how I want to live my next 40 years. It's like it's really put me in a position where I'm so hyper aware everything that I input and then everything that I output. Like it it gives you the it gives you complete control. And I think some guys just need this. They need that breath of fresh air. They need that instant relief to go, "Okay, okay, I could live with this now." And if you just keep living that positive lifestyle, it'll become your new norm, right? But you have to really want to change for me, I've never found anything that powerful in my life. And because a lot of guys are scared. They're scared about going down to Mexico and whatever it is. There's a 25 person staff in that house with you. Three paramedics, three RNs. They got cardiac s. They have everybody in there. The chefs in there are amazing. Michelin star quality, the food you eat, and there's indoor swimming pools. There's a Raiki lady in there that will crack your soul open in 15 seconds flat. I never thought Reiki was a thing until she puts her hands on you. The massage therapy, the breath work. I mean, it's a whole holistic approach. But because you've never just you've never allowed yourself to be vulnerable in that position and once you are, they just start to unravel you so fast. And that medicine is really the catalyst for the whole thing. And once you see what you can be, like I can be the same guy that I was now. I can just control him. I think that's what a lot of guys lose when they leave the team. Like, well, I've built myself into this because of that. Well, I can't take that with me. So, what do I do with this? My wife doesn't want this. I don't want this. My kids can't build a relationship with this. What am I supposed to do now? And that's when people make those rash decisions. They don't know where to go. And I think that's what's so powerful to medicine is that's the only thing stronger than the ego you've built up purpose built is that medicine. Yeah. Changed my life for sure. It's been great. Where my mind goes is, you know, um people who aren't in the military um these days are also really struggling also. I point out um and you know the United States in particular like we're we're at a pretty dark moment. It took me a while to actually like really internalize that. I was like man like like it like last week the Charlie Kirk thing that or same week or just a few days before that woman getting killed on the light rail. Um you got conflicts all over the world. you've got a ton of domestic unrest and people have come on this podcast and argued that you know in the last century there were a lot more deaths due to war and this kind of thing and you know statistics and is are one thing and they're important but um seeing people murdered in cold blood in either very deliberate or in what seemed like almost kind of like random like okay there was a person there so he killed her if there was someone else they might kill maybe not who knows what the motivation was you know and And to think about how traumas like that, just the pain of the world can be lifted. It's hard to imagine it happening in mass, right? It's hard. And yet, I think we all deep down know that that has to happen. And I think an attention to what young people are exposed to and trying to save them is, you know, the best thing about our species, right? Protect our young, make them put them into a world that's better than than the way we found it. And at the same time, I I what you're describing is is kind of a it sounds like the the medicine, for lack of a better way to put it, that the society and like this like kind of global consciousness really needs. I I've said before and I'll say it again. I I think if you look at humans across history, we've always had conflict. We've always created trauma for each other. We've not ever really been perfect ever. We're not perfect. We're flawed. We're all flawed. I think that's that's important to remember. And that things will improve over time. Perhaps this can be like a saw to up and to the right kind of graph. But you wonder if there was going to be a massive shift in collective consciousness and people were going to really heal their traumas and really start to see other people differently. Um that that's going to require some very powerful tools. And I just can't help but think there is no magic solution. people have to want to change and on and on. But um the Ibegan sounds like a special tool different than the other psychedelics because of the amount of attention and detail that's required to keep people safe while they do it. You need you know heart monitoring and it's a medical treatment in many ways. I think we should probably talk about it and frame it that way going forward. It's a medical treatment. The word psychedelic is a very loaded phrase and it's one of the things that I worry about in terms of trying to get ibeain and other treatments um implemented more broadly in the same way that when about 10 years ago we would think about breath work and I want to study respiration physiology in my lab calling it respiration physiology you know we have a clinical trial that we published on that if we called it breath work it's kind of wacky you call it respiration physiology which is also true people are more willing to embrace it so these to me are neuroplasticity the tools to help rewire one's brain for the better. And I am very hopeful that what you've done, I mean, again, thank you. You know, it's like, you know, we always thank people for their service, but here now you've got people that that served who are now going into this highly novel, at least for Americans, a treatment to help cure trauma and addiction. And you guys are first in and Marcus and Amber are, you know, early and first in. And um and people will argue, you know, these things have been around for a long time in native cultures in the and in jungles. And I will say just like meditation, just like yoga nidra, just like hydrotherapy, light therapy, it's exactly because it's been shrouded in complicated language that it isn't more broadly implemented. And I'm willing to say that a thousand times over. If if we truly care about people, we don't care what it's called. Sure, we want to uh pay respect to people that developed these things long ago, but enough is enough. like it's not about getting credit, it's about getting it out there. >> And you're exactly right. When you say psychedelics, everybody automatically labels it a certain way. And one of the best quotes I've ever heard is we gave uh we gave I gave to my buddy Maddie and he woke up the next day and he goes, "There is nothing recreational about that." Nope. There isn't. >> Terrifying. >> It can be. Some people wake up and it's bliss the entire time. And I'm so glad you have that. But if you were laying in Stanford right now and you gave me I gain hooked up the heart rate monitors, you were running the study, they wouldn't bat an eye like, "Oh yeah, it's the same thing. >> You have the same people around you. They're taking detailed notes. Everything you say, I mean this, you might as well be at a clinic. >> You are. It's in a beautiful house, beautiful staff, and the entire thing. But >> that's what it is. This is a treatment. This is not a bunch of guys eating, smoking, doing whatever peyote in the middle of the desert. It's not what that is. This is a very structured thing because you have some serious trauma. I think a lot of people label it like, "Oh, this is for guys with PTSD." I didn't go down there for PTSD. I went down there for whatever had I've turned into I was trying to get rid of that. And I'll tell you before, nothing in my military career has ever come up. None of it. That's not what haunts me. That's not what plagues me at night. It's not what keeps me up till 2, three in the morning. It's not that. And I've resolved all the things that was troubling me. And it's because that medicine is so powerful. I just hope more people will will get a hold of it. And I think if we had the right people putting out the right message on the right platforms, people they get a hold of it. So many people want to hear hate speech. >> Like negativity goes a lot more than positivity a lot of times because people hang on to that. It's like, you know, I read something they were talking about the um the best public speakers in human history and Hitler was in the top five. And they're like, well, just imagine if he was preaching positivity. He could have turned that entire country and really given them something to hang on to. He just didn't. And you wish that he would have been preaching the gospel. You wish he would have been preaching love and kindness for all of humanity. And then what would have happened in World War II? Wouldn't happen. >> Yeah. Humans have an appetite for for for that uh anger. There's a famous experiment by a guy named Robert Heath. He was a neuroscientist and neurosurgeon and um very controversial guy for all sorts of reasons. But he ran an experiment on humans where he was in the brain stimulating different brain areas and um uh he would implant little electrodes in humans and um people had the opportunity then later to stimulate different brain areas and different brain areas when stimulated evoke different subjective experiences. So they'd hit a lever, they'd feel kind of drunk, hit another lever, they'd feel sexual arousal, hit another lever, they'd feel laughter, others they'd feel less well. Do you know the number one brain area? There weren't many subjects in this. It's difficult experiment to do. But the number one brain area that these subjects all wanted to hit again and again and again was an area of the what's called the midline phalamus that evokes feelings of mild anger and frustration. It's linked to the dopamine system and it's associated with drive and it's what we learn if we're adaptive to funnel into creating things, building things, doing things. But it's very clear that we are hardwired to be pulled into environments and discourses that evoke anger. I feel like anger and numbing out are the two most dangerous things. And look, I love social media, teach on social media, but being online makes it very easy to feel anger and to numb out. And you know it's the ultimate drug really to offer that in my opinion. And then there's this other lane of life, right, which is harder to access. Um where the real richness is, where the real stuff is, where real meaning comes from, where time doesn't just disappear and where you build things that are lasting and that with if I die in in 10 seconds, I'll I'll know that I'd spent some time in that lane enough to know that like that's where the really good stuff is. And it's a bit more difficult or a lot more difficult to access, but that's real life. >> And the rest is is uh is a game that's being played on us that takes advantage of some hard wiring that I wish didn't exist, but it exists in all of us. I think if we knew that that existed in all of us, just like we have an appetite for sugar, >> you know, it's hardwired, uh that we would make better choices. So, I'm I'm so glad that you've done I gain and DMT in that setting and that you guys are getting the message out there. And I don't know what the broader implementation looks like, but I like to think that with collaboration with Nolan, what's Veteran Solutions, Ambio, and other clinics like it and really good for once, really good politicians on both sides of the aisle arguing for this. I'm hopeful. I I fully support my tax dollars going to uh the expansion of this. I really do. >> They've been spending a lot of time in the beltway getting funding, you know, clinical trials, research, doing the entire thing. And they've got a whole coalition now. Navy Seal Foundation stepped up, a Green Bree Foundation, I think uh might be the Recon Foundation and Wounded Warrior Project. They all came coalition. They're all going to get behind this and all kind of push the exact same message. Let's get the funding. Let's get the research. Let's prove that it works. and hopefully bring it to the US. Like we have to start with the veterans because it's smaller population, less than 1% of the population. Let's target them. Let's get first responders and let's open this thing up. And you know, Marcus is doing a lot to really beat that war drum. And I'm just so thankful. One of the things he said when we went down there cuz you don't realize how how palpable toxicity is. Like you want to be hateful sometimes and it like hurt people hurt people. You've been hurt and now you want someone else to feel that exact same thing. Soon you see something hateful on social media. What's the first thing you do? You go to the comment section. You read, "Yep, I feel that too. I like that comment. I'm gonna comment underneath it." Yep. Yep. You just start to project that hate over and over and over again. If I say, "Look at it. I'm not going to get involved in that. Actually, I'm just going to unfollow this person because every time I see you're saying something hateful, slow but surely, it's getting out that toxicity. Allows the the best form of you to continue to go forward. Yeah. I mean, you have to you got to protect your peace. You got to surround yourself with positive people that are better than you that want to try to drag you up that hill. And thank God for people like that because man, I mean, if you haven't been there, if you have not been that only guy on the island alone, just cuz I mean, I often say it, I was the first guy in the SEAL teams to suffer depression, anxiety, and suicide ideation because I'd never heard of it before, right? So, I'm in my living room just my wife's not there and we talk about dogs. One of the number one reasons I never did it was when I would get to the point where I had made up my mind that dog would walk in that room and drop his head on my lap and look at me. >> Not today. I get up and I go on a walk with the dog. >> Is your Japanese mastiff? >> Yeah. >> Amazing breed, folks. I just learned about it today. I absolutely want one of these. What is the proper name? >> Tossa Enu. They are beautiful beasts. >> They They are amazing. Yeah. So, my wife's uh first husband Danny, they had a Japanese mastiff and an old English bulldog. So, when he passed, I met Py 3 years later. Those are the dogs I inherited. And you couldn't pick a better dog breed. It was the most beautiful dog I've ever seen in my like a Bengal tiger. 200 lb, but a gentle giant. One of those things when you walk in the house and that thing sees you, your heart just goes to 180. You're like, I'm so happy to be home and see this dog right now. It's like it pulls you out of a depression. I mean, therapy dogs are a real thing. And, >> you know, shout out to the Red Cross. I I didn't know what the Red Cross did in, you know, 2020. Like, what do you do? >> They bring in dogs in a hospital bed is what they do for sure. They did it for me. And there's nothing like laying in the hospital bed. You've been throwing up for a week and you're just you don't have your cell phone. You can't call your wife. And they bring in some giant St. Bernard that jumps into bed with you. And it is heaven on earth. It is. It's like that little bit gets you through the hump. Mhm. >> What do you bring me tomorrow? Like we get some cocker spaniels like bring them in here. I don't care what it is now. It's like I just need I need a dog. I need something that makes me feel better. >> Yeah, >> dogs are amazing. >> They are an old English bulldog just like Costello. I mean that's that's those are my people, my my creatures. >> Um I just might get a Japanese mastiff. >> Um >> I'd like to talk about your standards. M >> I've heard you say worst situation is being a big fish in a small pond. >> Not many people say that. >> Let's talk about standards. Uh first starting with physical standards and let's actually get back to the program just briefly. Um you you mentioned the 5day a week program. A little while ago I saw you put out um it's a a fit test basically that's designed to be done anytime. No preparation after you've done uh it's GBRS. >> Yep. >> Is your program. I'm going to sign up for this. This is not a promotional. I'm just going to do it. I'm going to pay full price. I'm going to insist on paying full price like everyone else and doing this because I turn 50 in about a week and I want to stay fit going forward. And um let me see if I got this right. It involves a broad jump, >> some pull-ups, some push-ups. Would you walk us through what the test is and what the program actually provides? Um because I know a lot of people listening are already exercising and are attached to their program, right? guys are like they want more lower bicep, rear delt stuff, but this is different. This is about allaround functional fitness >> at any age, men or women. >> So, what's the program? >> So, we started that program. It's like a recovery from injury, right? I'm just trying to maintain a high standard. I've I've had a high standard physically since I was 17, right? I've gotten better. I've had really really high points and low points coming back from injury, but I wanted something to be able to maintain a high standard. And when we got out, you start working with SWAT teams, SEAL teams, every team in between, firemen, and everybody else. And it's such a physical component that cannot be ignored. But so many people in the 80s, 90s, even early 2000s, like good is good enough. Like, you ever seen the show Rescue Me? >> Mhm. >> Dennis Liry and a bunch of guys, a bunch of firemen in New York, and they had the fat firemen, big handlebar mustaches, you had the young guys, and you see all this stuff. Now, if you look at the majority of firemen, they look like professional. They look like CrossFitters. Like, they're in shape because they understand, we've got so much data on human potential and how to get there. Nutrition, sleep, recovery, training protocols, and they realize that you are your first lifeline. Your physical vessel is the thing you can get in the airport through TSA. I can get in the White House. I don't need to bring any tools with me. This is a really, really good tool and it's always with me if I keep it at a high level. So, we're going through here and you know, the majority of the military screen test and SWAT teams, it's all body weight, push-ups, pull-ups, running, SEAL teams, and special operations swim test, and that's about it. You'll do O courses and some other stuff, but the majority of it, that's just what it is. Well, that's not reality. You don't walk around, there's no weigh in. You don't walk in in a pair of board shorts and weigh in. You're wearing body armor, helmets, you know, pano night vision. It's a lot of heavy stuff you have to carry. So, you're always under an extreme load, but the physical standard was so high as a tier one level. I mean, the the entire force is, but you have to maintain such a high level because everybody else is around you. So, when I'm looking at all these guys, SWAT team guys, like if you had a physical standard, every SWAT team in the country held. If the lowest dude on team could pass this test, the top guys are at the super elite level. You're so well-rounded, you can solve anything physically. And that's one of the big things in the military. You never want to have to say no. Can you 25 guys get up over this mountain and assault that target by 04 in the morning? If if it can be done physically, we can do it no matter what. We'll find a way. Move heaven and earth. We'll get it done. It's really, really hard to make a good decision on the backside when you are so physically taxed cuz no decision you're ever going to make is without being under extreme duress. If we elevate the physical standard, we can make better mental. I mean, we can we can make better decisions through mental clarity when we're not just sucking wind. >> Also true very much so in civilian life, right? >> Everywhere like ENTs, I mean, business, entrepreneurship, school teachers, everybody, right? If you're not physically labored, you can make better decisions. So, that's the whole goal. >> I don't care if you're a 45-year-old fireman that has an extra 35 lbs of weight on you or if you're a 19-year-old kid who's in their prime. If you have to run up 10 flights of stairs carrying that hose, when you get to the top, execute a good decision. The guy who's heart rate isn't at 180 is going to make a better decision. They just are, and we all know it. So, let's set a standard that, you know, I don't care if it's Wednesday, if it's 2:00 in the morning on a Saturday, if you spring out of bed and take this test, you should be able to pass it no matter what. Now, what level are we trying to adhere? As high as humanly possible. If I hit the elite standard right now, in 3 weeks, I should hit the elite again. If I start to taper off, why? Lack of sleep, poor nutrition, you know, just really crazy OPT tempmpo. I'm in the red the whole time. Okay, maybe I need to take a couple days off, get back on my training plan to maintain that high level. But we do a broad jump. So power output on the floor in a dynamic fashion, landing, propriception. >> So just have people stand on a line, jump as far forward as they possibly can. And this the the lowest standard is your height. Is that right? So if I'm 6' tall, I should be able to broad jump past >> 6 foot. >> What's the next level up from that? >> 1 foot. >> One foot past your height. >> Yep. So 7t would be, you know, middle of the road. If I can jump 8 ft, that's really the standard. Like for me, I'm trying to get to a 10ft broad jump. >> Like I want to hit 10 feet and I want to hold that as long as humanly possible. >> And you can swing your arms, no running start, but you just swing your arms forward, jump, >> swing your arms, jump, feet low to the ground, dynamic fashion. And I always tell the guys, in reality, you are not going to have time to negotiate the obstacle. You are not going to be able to run up to that ditch and stop and look at and go, "Okay, I need to get I need to back it up a little bit." You're going to have to go as a cop chasing this kid down this city park. You're going to have to scale that 8ft fence right now. Not look for a step stool. Not, oh, what can I climb on to get over this? You're going to have to hit that thing at full value and go up and over it. You should have the physical ability to do that. So, we have a broad jump and a lot of people, Vernon has a really good thing about monkey bars. Like, everybody was swinging on monkey bars when you're a kid in a certain point in adulthood, you stop doing it. But you'll look at your kid, 9 years old, swing on monkey bars, you're like, "Oh, you're doing it wrong. Do it this way." Well, jump up there and show them. If you haven't been on monkey bars in 40 years, expect to be humbled really, really fast. >> It's like lose it or use it or lose it, it's going to happen. So, we're always trying to test ourselves like what is going to make me a dynamic participant throughout the whole process. Broad jumps a really good expression. We have that in the SEAL teams. We had a legacy test. It was a bodyweight bench press. NFL. It's 225 bench press. It's not fair for me to give 225 to a kid that weighs 160 lbs. So, >> or 140 lb woman or 50 lb woman. Yeah. >> Your body weight though. And we go minimum standard 10 repetitions. >> 10 repetition single set with your body weight. >> That's minimum standard. 15 next level up. 20 plus is elite. If you can bench press your body weight 20 times, you are in top tier. >> This is full range of movement. Bar touches your chest, you press that all the way to a straight arm. >> All the way. So 20 reps on that. Pull-ups with no weight. And we do that because so many guys have so many injuries, so many shoulder injuries. And if your technique isn't there and you're dropping out of the hole, I don't want you to dislocate and jam up a shoulder. So pull-ups are in there. We have a farmer's carry. >> How many pull-ups? Sorry. the uh >> 10, 15, and 20 plus. >> So 10 with your body weight, 15 is the next level up, and then 20 plus is elite. Okay. >> Y and in a perfect word, we do it with weight. In the SEAL teams, we add weight to it. But for everybody, if you can do 20 straight dead hang pull-ups, you're at the top physical game. There's less >> no kip. Uh chin clears the bar. >> Chin clears the bar. >> Okay. >> We do a farmer's carry. So with your body weight, so if you weigh 200 lb, you have 100 lb dumbbell in each hand. You get up and you walk it as far as you can. I'd have to look at the exact feet measurement, but I think the Elite is almost 300 ft. >> Mhm. >> 275 and 250 somewhere around there. And it's not an easy thing to do, but we work so much grip for the pull-ups and everything else. Like grip matters. We say that a lot. >> It's very hard to climb up a caving ladder on the side of a cruise ship when it's underway. Your grip is the only thing that's going to get you there. So, we really put a lot of focus on griping. Firemen need it. Cops need it. If I'm trying to if I'm trying to manipulate a full grown man through time and space against their will, your grip is a key factor in that. >> You ask anybody who grapples. When somebody who grapples and you know how to use it, grabs a hold of you, you instantly know you're in a world of hurt. >> You grab some NCAA wrestling, he grabs a hold of you, the first thing you feel is his hands. Oh no, I'm just grabbing a hold of a grizzly bear right now. This is not going to be good. We need everybody to have that same strength. >> Also, someone's got to open the pickle jar. >> Exactly. Got to be able to open the pickle jar. But when you pick up that weight, everything's in there. Your core is in there. Your posture really matters. Upright. I've got to be able to control my breathing. Ocular focus. Where am I looking? And then how long can I hold on to this? I've got to keep a rigid frame. I can't lean over and let it take control of me. I can't lean back. I've got to be present throughout the entire movement. And then just push. So, we've got that. We've got a trap bar deadlift. We use a trap bar because the majority of guys in that career, they've already got some injuries stacked up. And we actually put 45 pound bumper plates to pull from a little bit of an elevation because I've got a really long torso. And the big thing we push in that program is we want you to be able to train 52 weeks out of the year. There is no offseason for a fireman. There's no offseason for a SWAT team guy. There's no offseason for an Army Ranger. And if you get jammed up in the gym, and I've done it really bad, the mission doesn't care. You have to go anyway. And now you're not at 100%. and the entire patrol in you're thinking about your lower back and if you're going to be able to be able to perform on target. We can't have that. We're trying to increase your confidence. Never decrease it. So that's why you pull from that. That is one and a half times your body weight is the minimum standard >> for how many repetitions? >> Five. >> One and a half times your body weight. Okay. >> And then two times your body weight. I think it's two and a half times your body weight is the elite for a set of five. You know, you can obviously do more. I think I did a set of 12 in that video, but it's just >> can I pick up double body weight under control without slamming on the ground, proper form in control the entire time. >> So, we add in all those. So, the broad jump, the farmer's carry, the bodyweight bench, the pull-ups, the trap bar deadlift, and we have an 800 meter run. >> Mhm. >> We also have a plank for time. So, a minute and a half, 2 minutes. No, it's 2 minutes, 2 and 1/2 minutes, and 3 minutes. >> Arms planking. however you want to hold it. >> And we were going to do sit-ups originally, but sit-ups is such a hip flexor dominant position because I have that long torso. If I don't anchor my feet, 50 sit-ups is really, really hard for me. And how do you gauge it? Are your hands interlocked behind your back? There's a whole bunch of different ways to cheat it. It's very hard to cheat a plank, but your core is so important. >> And that's something that Vernon got me doing. I had a lot of lower back injuries, as we all do. I started walking around with my core at like 40 to 50% flexed all day, every day. my lower back issues went away instantly. So, I walk around with a little bit of tension all day long. Just imagine walking around the pool with your shirt off. A little bit of tension in your abs and it protects my lower back. So, we always say be an active participant throughout the entire movement. I'm never going to let my core go to jello because then my lower back will spasm. Everything is locked in. Everything is in control. My intensity is there. My focus is there. And I've blocked out all the stray voltage. So, we get through that and then we do an 800 meter run. I wanted to do 400 meter repeats. Do a 400 stop. As long as it took you to run, execute another one in the same amount of time. Well, the SWAT team, they have an 800 meter run. We're like, well, since you already do it, I don't need a guy that can run a marathon. I need a guy that can throw a 200lb guy over his shoulders, run him up 10 flights of stairs, and make a good decision. So, being a marathon runner, while it might be great for you, it doesn't really give me everything I need. And you really need that hybrid athlete. And that 800 meter I didn't realize. And then I talked to everybody who's a distance runner. The 800 is brutal. >> Mhm. >> It's too fast to fully sprint and you can't slow down because that time metric I think is 315, 3 minutes, and 245 to be the elite. So I think I'm in like the 240 range right now, but I haven't ran since I snapped my hip. Other than sprints, I don't distant run because it hurts my hip too bad. But I'm able to get through it. I've got a laundry list of injuries. And we did that entire test cold war boore. We basically wrote it down. And the whole thing when I sit down with Vernon, I was like, I need something to drive to. I do better when there's a target goal on the wall. Like two years ago was a 400 lb bench press. I have never been able to bench press 400 lb. I've missed it every time. My shoulders are all blown out. And I was like, with all the injuries, I want to press 400 lb one time before I hang it up forever. Retrain the entire year. Hit 407. Racked it. Now what? I need to hold a high standard. What is it? Well, if I was on a SEAL team or a SWAT team and every dude could pass that test. We have a physical dynasty because not everyone can. But it gives you something. You look at me and it's like I've got a laundry list of injuries, dude. I'm on the wrong side of 40 right now. I've never taken my foot off the gas and neither should you. You're 22 years old. You should be running circles around me. And if you're not, just because you don't care enough, like no one has slapped you. That's the whole concept of be a pro. Everything I'm doing is putting me in position to be the best version of myself because the team deserves it. Everything I do, everything I say, everything I represent should be putting the group in a better position. And for us, because it's such a dangerous job, your physical readiness, it can't be ignored. That is the one thing that everyone should be able to count on. And they should look at you. Well, I know John cares. Look at him. Like, he didn't wake up like that. That dude is in the gym 5 days a week because he wants to be the best fireman he can possibly be. And that's what we push out. And the standards have been great. A lot of guys get super humbled by them and you know some guys lie because I see their numbers like there's no way you did that. But it keeps them honest. >> Yeah. And it's tough. I mean I looked at those numbers. I mean I think most people who've been training regularly will find that maybe two or three of the things come naturally to them and others are difficult cuz everyone's got different like I have a really short torso, long arm. So certain things are easier, certain things are harder. Like I think that's what I really like about it. It's spread out across the table so that no one person can dominate just by virtue of some, you know, previous sport history or natural proclivity based on body shape or something. Um, how often are you having people self test on this? >> We tell the guys whenever they're ready. We did a 12week block on it and I've been traveling a lot so haven't really been able to retest. We're coming up on it maybe next two weeks or so. >> Going to retest just to see where it's at. But that was the interesting thing is I call back to the command to our strength conditioning coaches and I pulled out all my scores from a test that's very very similar. Bodyweight bench, max pull-ups, did the whole thing. My numbers now 15 years later, some are better than they were when I was in my 20s. >> Awesome. >> And it's like I'm not training for that. This is just the program. It keeps me at a super high level. We had um we had a doctor from Duke University come down and do uh some CQB testing on me and we had to test V2 max. I haven't trained for V2 max in 20 years and my V2 max is still on the top 00001% of the earth. All elite athletes. I don't train V2 max and I my breathing is so inefficient. And that's what he laughed about. You're ultrasounding my diaphragm. He's like your breathing's terrible but it translates to where your V2 max is awesome. He's like you can live forever. That's that's how we determine how long you're going to live for as V2 max and your V2 max is through the roof. I don't train it. If you just do the program, maintain it consistently, it'll give you such a well-rounded approach to everything. And you know, that's the big thing is I don't want to have to say no. Hey, can you pick that up? Yeah. Can you jump over that? Yeah. Can you move that out of the way? Yep. Can you move him through time and space? Yep. >> Also helps cuz you have kids and they, you know, >> Yeah. swimming, playing, running around and also setting a high standard within family. >> You know, I think um there are always two sides to the fitness nutrition conversation. One is >> I'll just say it, you know, I feel like the standards in the United States have drifted so far in terms of what we consider healthy, um what we're willing to accept. uh my dad who is not you know he's a first generation immigrant here I'll never forget in the I think it was like in the mid 90s or something he said to me he said you know today I went he was talking about himself he he said I went to the movies and I uh and I saw people in pajamas I was like what do you mean he's like people go to the movies now like as if they just woke up in their slippers and pajamas and I said oh yeah and he said um this is the beginning of the end he said because when that slips then pretty soon it's like you're willing to tolerate things on the street you know then people aren't weeding their lawns and then pretty soon, you know, it just breeds this this general um disinterest in taking care of of things and then, you know, I can't link it directly to people going to the movies in their pajamas, but and everyone likes to be comfortable. So, I don't think he was saying everyone should avoid wearing sweatpants, but I think what he was saying is, you know, etiquette and self-care and self-respect is projected outward. So, that's one side of it, right? um we have a 30 35% of the United States is obese not just overweight but obese. on the other side is the opportunity, right? So, it's always good to think about the opportunity and um the program that you're offering it clearly is great for first responders and people with high intensity, high demand um work, but the reason I'm interested in it is because I want to be fit for the next 50 years. And so, I'm going to try it because um I want to train to be able to do these things when I'm 70 or 80 or 90. I figure if I get out that far, it's kind of like how could I possibly do it then? Well, by doing it every day until then, right? That's, you know, it's it's obvious. The solution is obvious. So, is this a program that women, men, um, anyone could do. And is the and the training doesn't just center around these these movements. It centers around the 5day a week program. >> And my understanding is there's tutorial in there. Like you get some you get some support cuz I think this is really what's missing from most online programs because anyone can go to YouTube or look online and go, you know, what's the we even have a foundational fitness protocol is what I've been, you know, doing for the last 30 something years. And I'm, you know, starting to modify that now based on the GBRS, uh, and this fit test. But it's a whole other thing to have support and have people working with you because this is about not being the only fish in the pond. >> One of the things that program does better than anything else I've ever seen is there's probably 800 to a,000 movement tutorials that are either guided by me with Vernon doing all the coaching cues. Big toe down, feel this, roll this hip over, you'll feel this. He's he navigates it so well verbally and physically you can watch him. He'll manipulate me demonstrating exactly what you'll feel and touch. Then the message board on the backside. So when you finish the workout, everybody else who's done that workout, all you know, thousands of people, they comment on how they're feeling and he'll read that and he's like, "Hey guys, looks like everybody's getting a little fatigued after the last couple weeks after this, you know, this power block we just did. Hey, we're going to taper off for the next five days. We're going to regroup and following Monday, we're going to push and this is what we're going to do." So, he'll sprinkle in more running. >> You know, when summertime comes around, we'll start to >> add in a little bit more, but we add in the 20-minute walks every day so everybody gets them right after you leave. I steal a bunch of stuff from you. Like, [ __ ] can of sunglasses. Let's get some vitamin D. Straighten my eyes first thing in the morning. Set circadian rhythm. I do the same thing at night. It's like they've all been saying the same thing, man. Like, if you just make it part of your routine, and Schwarzenegger says it, too. Like, hey, did you work out yesterday? Uh-huh. I'm going to work out tomorrow and the next day. I brush my teeth twice a day, too. I'm going to continue doing it. It's part of my routine, and I'm not going to miss it. I've been doing this and I haven't missed session for six years, and I am not going to miss one tomorrow. Why would I? You're seeing what it's doing for me. I mean, I've got a laundry list of injuries and I'm still to perform at a super high level because I'm not taking my foot off the gas. There's nothing magical about me. I'm a I'm the most normal dude you'll ever meet. But, I mean, we have 65, 70 year olds on that program. And if you can't do one, if you have a limitation, so do we. You can do a dropown menu and there'll be 40 different exercises to pick from. So if I go to a hotel gym, I don't have it. Very first thing I do, I walk down, I scan the whole thing, I send it to Vernon, he's like, "Ooh, only dumbbells to 50, huh?" I was like, "Yeah." And he'll send me a workout >> or I'll just drop down the menu like, "Okay, well, because today's my leg day, I'm actually going to do Friday's workout and I'll shift Thursday because I'll be home my home gym. I'll do Thursday's workout on Friday." >> Flexible. >> Oh, it's flexible. >> Yeah. It's so important. I mean I think really I mean standards are what we all need for ourselves and standards are what honestly I think this country needs and and it's tricky because within this new administration you know the the whole notion of Maha quickly got um kind of stained by the by the politicizing of like the motives and all that like it in the end people need to eat better train better and there are real medical issues out there people are are contending with But just imagine if people actually started to take their physical body seriously. You know, this is something I I really want I'm going to say it again later, but I want to say it now very clearly. One thing that I think is so absolutely clear from everything you've said about your backstory, where you're at now, the Ibegan work, your care for first responders, your care for your teammates, your family, is that you take yourself seriously. >> Yeah. >> So for you, it's a Yeah. I think most people take their feelings seriously. They take their responses to what's going on in their life seriously. You know, that at the center of our consciousness, a previous guest said, you know, is our ego, the the us, the me, the we're all like that to some extent. But taking oneself seriously as a form of self-respect and building up one's ability to support others and to do important things for other people in our life, our family, and for the world is so key. And I feel like taking oneself seriously is the cornerstone of everything I've heard you say today and everything you're doing that it it's not taking a feeling in a moment seriously. In fact, sometimes it's about doing that and sometimes it's about going no, I'm going to push that aside and I'm going to brush my teeth. I'm going to lean into that. I'm going to do not do what I prefer to do in the moment so that I can really show up. But that we need to take ourselves seriously. >> You do. You have to. And I have this big thing I do. I've been asked to do a lot of motivational speaking lately and a lot of that. And I tell this story about a a kid that grows up want to be a fireman and how he got inspired by a fireman because that guy was a physical representation of what that kid thought a fireman would be. Looked apart, act apart. He's heroic as you might as well put a red cape on this kid and send him through the door. I mean, that's what it is. But that's you representing everything you think a fireman should be. I just what you say, what you wear, how you speak, do everything. So for me, anybody who I meet, I'm giving you both barrels right now because I am trying to live the actual life that I think I should be living that translates all the positive stuff I'm trying to put out. If you saw me and I was 50 lbs overweight at a bar drinking my 12th beer, talking about mental health, you wouldn't take me serious. >> Talking about how you were an Navy Seal back when >> that does nothing for them. >> Yeah. It's like that's not how I identify. Yeah, I did that job and yeah, you think that gives me credibility. I don't care about that a bit. That doesn't give me credibility. The way I live my life now, my daily routine gives me the credibility. Cuz no matter who you are, you can adopt that same lifestyle. That same routine, you can grab it as a housewife. You can wake up early and go out and do a 20-minute walk every single morning before your kids wake up. You're just refusing to do it. I don't know why, but I promise you if every single person ever watches this, you wake up and do a 20-minute walk in the morning and one after dinner and you do it for seven days on the eighth day, the world doesn't fall apart. It only gets better the more you do it. It just will. People just don't want to put in the work. They want this quick fix. They want Ozimpic. They want this. or they're saying, and I hear this and uh it's trickier for me because I'm late to the game on kids uh and family, but um mark my words, but in your case, you've already had kids. You got a a wife, you have a functioning family and a very busy, demanding career and a previous career that carries with it incredible experiences, but also challenges that you're resolving now and you've resolved and you have a mission in the world. And so a lot of times I'll hear people say, "Well, that's easy for you to say cuz you don't have kids." And and I'm kind of muted at that moment. And I want to respond and say, "Listen, when I was a graduate student, I worked 100 hours a week, but I was in my 20s and I didn't have kids, so I I have very little ammunition there." In your case, however, uh you have kids and you're getting up and you're doing two 20-minute walks and you're including your family in these practices, too. You said your evening walks with your wife are a crucial part of your connection. >> If anyone is struggling with building that bridge, especially guys transition out of the military or a career, you watch it with Tom Brady and everybody else when they leave the thing they were put on this earth to do, there is a fall from grace. It can't be ignored. And most of the time that splits with the wife, right? Like the person you are now, she's not used to being home and now you don't have anything. If you are struggling to rebuild that connection with your wife, with your partner, that 20-minute walk has saved my marriage. I have given it to thousands of people. That right there, if I could give everybody a gift, the power of that 20-minute walk, it's changed my whole life, man. That is the one constant thing I don't compromise on. I mean, even to the point where, as dumb as it may be, when I'm walking through the Atlanta airport, I don't get on the little conveyor belt. I'm not doing that. I'll walk from terminal E all the way to terminal A because it's a 20-minute power push. I do it and I film it on social media. I'm getting my steps in no matter what. I'm not on my phone. I'm showing you you can find the time. Instead of sitting there at Starbucks for 45 minutes waiting on my flight, I'll just walk back and forth. I just got a 40-minute walk in straight. I'm good. So when I get back home, it's 2:30 in the morning. I don't feel guilty. I haven't done anything physical today. >> I wake up in the morning, 5:00 a.m., and I gear it up and I spin it again. You can find the time. Rarely. You have to make the time. >> If you're waiting for it just to pop up like, "Oh, here's a free 20-minute block." You're not going to have it. And people just That's the thing I can't get past. It's like, oh, you know, I can't wake up that early. You have a $1,000 smartphone that does anything. There's not a question you can ask it it doesn't have the answer to. And there's a a clock on it. If you set it, it'll go off. When it goes off, get out of bed. Like, I've been doing it my whole life. I don't understand it. They just don't want to. They've never felt the power of being in control of the small things. Why stacking up the microw lay out your clothes the night before? I mean, how many people wake up, you know, 20 minutes before they're supposed to leave the door and they're just frantic like, "Where's my black shirt? Where's my black shirt? Who are my shoes? Where are my car keys?" Like, that's a terrible way to start the day. But you're the one who's doing that. >> If you just spend 10 minutes the night before, take your shower, lay out the clothes, put them in the logical order you're about to get them dressed in next morning and go. You'd be surprised how fast you're actually making a cup of coffee. Like, man, I did my entire morning routine in less than five minutes. What would I do with my next 40? Whatever you want. Do 10 minutes of meditation. Sit there in a dark room and just tell yourself 10 things you're truly grateful for. Like, I am so glad I have my wife. I'm so glad I have two healthy kids. I'm so glad I have a company. I'm so glad I have two arms and two legs. I'm so glad I'm still alive. Cool. What are you going to do? I'm going to make the most out of it. Go to work and do that. People just don't want to make the time because they've never seen the example. So, a lot of stuff we try to put out is I'm trying to be a physical representation of what I'm trying to massproduce. Physically strong, mentally resilient, capable, patriotic Americans. That's what I'm trying to do. I just want you to have accountability. I've accounted for all my failures, all my successes, and everything else in between. And I'll show them exactly what happens when you do it wrong. And I think that's what a lot of people like the most about it is I will tell you all my deepest darkest secrets because you're going to learn a lot more from those than you are about climbing Everest, right? Like everybody wants to see the picture at the top of the mountain. They don't want to hear about, you know, how many sherpas you lost on the way to the top. They don't want to hear about that. I do. I want to hear about the real struggle. Like how hard is it to be you? Talk me through it. I can learn so much from the hardships of people and just unfortunately we're in a a place now where not too many people are willing to share it. Yeah, just trying to help out as many people as possible before I hang this whole thing up and retire. >> Man, well, you are absolutely helping a ton of people and today's discussion is just going to amplify that. I have to say I'm I'm immensely grateful for you. I felt a kinship with you from the very first time I saw you on Sean's podcast cuz you mentioned the skateboarding thing and I think I heard the words uh that you prefer dogs to people sometimes. I think you you've embraced people uh as well. um and your love of dogs. Uh that was the hook. And then uh we have some common friends in the team's community and um that I respect very much. Some of whom have been guests, others who are still behind the veil. But um your message is so important. You have very high standards for yourself and you meet those standards and you're constantly trying to meet and exceed those standards. And it's also very clear that you've learned this is this unconscious genius part about maybe it's teams, maybe it's just some people in it, but it's clearly very alive in you. You learn to use physical decisions, real world actionable, implementable decisions to create internal change so that you can engage with the world in more functional and more meaningful ways. It's like the waking up early thing. I I confess I've been a little weak on the waking up early thing about prioritizing sleep and this kind of thing. And um there's also a strong anti-depressant effect of waking up early that I've noticed and that's exists in the literature. So I'm going to get back to that. I'm definitely going to do the GBRS program. I'm hoping other people will as well. Um again, it's not a promotional for that. I think how amazing would it be if as a country people started to really take their physical body seriously, not expect some, you know, package to arrive on their doorstep if they were to take that pill or or that thing and suddenly they were going to be healthy and instead to really just lean into these 20-minute walks, sunlight, the GBRS programs, I was like an awesome way to get all-around fitness and to maintain that for a lifetime. I just want to thank you for everything you're doing. you you've definitely opened up on an emotional level to the world today and elsewhere. You've opened up uh your protocols. You've made it very clear that you're human, that you're not perfect, and that despite all that, you're still going to keep striving, striving, striving. It's a it's a magnificent example at every level. So, I really really grateful. >> I got some I want to give you >> for me. >> Yeah. >> Slide you those. >> Okay. So, I'm going to tell you the backstory real quick. >> So, we started doing in-house embroidery >> and we wanted to do an American flag hat, >> but we sat down with Tyro Milikin. He runs all our stuff and we got an apprentice, Sophia, that does all our embroidery in house, six head embroidery machine, and we wanted to do an American flag hat. And I got so I'm going try not to get upset. I get so sick of people ordering American flag patches off Amazon from China in border stitching them on hats and letting that be a patriotic symbol. >> Is that how it's typically done? >> I mean, you can go to Amazon, I can buy 500 of those for >> And those are made in China. Yeah. Got it. >> And I can border stitch them on there. I can hot glue them on there. We've got this embroidery machine and Tyler's a wizard with just embroidery files and everything else. And we were like, "Let's make the American flag hat. It's not going to be a border stitch. it's not going to be a patch we sew on this thing. Like what's it going to be? And he looked right at me and he goes, I can make you the hat, but we are never going to make money on it. And I was like, I ain't about making money. And he's like, well, I can't massproduce them either. I was like, the hat and the story I'm going to tell is not meant for mass production. So when he launched those hats, that hat is almost 24,000 individual stitches. It takes 60 minutes just to make the flag. The quality control that goes inside that, if a single thread is pulled, rolled, anything, we cancel it. We toss it. But that hat and I I see >> it was actually stitched into the back. No, it's not I see what you're saying. It's not a patch stitch onto a hat. It's it it is the hat. >> It is. >> Yeah. Got it. >> You know, when we first dropped those things, I told everybody I was like, "This hat is for the people that get emotional when they hear the national anthem. This hat is for the people whose children say the pledge of allegiance with hand over heart. They go to the baseball games. They have a visceral response when they hear the national anthem played. They're not kneeling at football games. They're not playing all the left side and right side. They are patriotic Americans. And I told him, if you are going to wear this hat and let anything poisonous come out of your mouth while you're wearing that hat, I will fly there and I'll snatch it off your head. Everything you're going to do needs to represent what you think the essence of America is. Everything that flows out of your mouth while you're wearing that hat better be done with dignity and respect because a lot of brave men and women have sacrificed everything just for that little piece of cloth. So, we don't massproduce them. We drop them a couple times a year. We'll do like a be a pro drop a couple different times and they fly like wildfire. And it's so cool to see because the people that know, they know. Like we have done so much for that flag. And I hate seeing it being misrepresented in any way, shape, or form. You do it such in a beautiful light. I would love for you to have those. Most of those came from the boys at GBRS. And I know that when you wear them, you'll preach the gospel and you'll represent the American people in a beautiful way. But if you don't, I will fly out here and I'll snatch them off your head like I will anybody else. But I believe you. But those things those represent we've got a bunch of patriots and a bunch of veterans that work inside with us. So every time we do that drop, the entire the entire company we're 40ome people strong now. And when that hat comes out, everybody can feel it like beating the war drum on just being a good patriot. I know I isolated for just Americans, but the overall message is I want everyone to be a patriot. Everyone in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, France, if you have ownership and you are patriotic of where you come from, you represent it so much better than anyone else. If I've never met a person from Australia and I go there and I meet one person, it's a positive experience. For the rest of my days, I'll talk about that experience. So, when I wear that hat, I try to represent what I want the American people to be like. So when somebody meets me from, you know, Zimbabwe and I'm wearing that hat, that interaction is going to be the best I can possibly be because of the weight of that thing sitting on my head. Um, yeah, when I came out here, you know, I was telling the boys like, I got to I got to bring Andrew to Hatton. They spun him up real quick. We don't drop those things till November, but I wanted you to have the first one. So, thank you for everything and thanks for having me on, man. >> Oh, man. Thank you. I'm I'm honored. I will uh wear it and I will uh uh I will meet and I will strive to exceed the standard that you describe and I fully believe that if I don't you'll come out here and kick my ass. That's uh that's part of the part of the deal. Uh we can also provide a link to uh where you guys make these. And um >> yeah, again I just really want to thank you. It's clear that quality and standards is in your DNA and it's in more importantly it's in everything you do right right down to the hats. So, thank you so much, DJ. Come back again. >> I will. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with DJ Shipley. To find links to his website, as well as the links to the fitness program that we described, please see the show note captions. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zerost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a fivestar review. and you can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comment section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our neural network newsletter, the neural network newsletter is a zerocost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of 1 to three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost. You simply go to hubmanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with DJ Shipley. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science. [Music]